Wired my compression releases to my starter.

DRBarnhart · Sep 10, 2015

Another possibility... Have you changed the ignition module? And if so, maybe it's too far advanced.

Dennis

BWG56 · Sep 10, 2015

badyellowvette said:
Haven't changed anything. still stock.

Mines stock also, if you are using a slam button, are you pushing the starter shaft/gear out to engage teeth in clutch hub? If so, this bang is hard enough to break the starter housing and starter mount and i don't think I would want my finger on it when it kicks.

Th3InfamousI · Sep 10, 2015

I'm following this thread, I have the same problem and you beat me to wiring up the CRs.

Weather is supposed to be nice this weekend so I'd like to actually ride my bikes and I have a kids birthday to attend but I have a couple things on my bike I'm going to take a look at. I'll post here If I find anything suspicious which I think may be contributing to our problem. I just don't want to send you on a witch hunt, I'll do that part

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BWG56 · Sep 10, 2015

That's not right holding out on us Eric, come on spill the beans, we can't wait till the weekend :here:

Th3InfamousI · Sep 10, 2015

BWG56 said:
That's not right holding out on us Eric, come on spill the beans, we can't wait till the weekend

I'm starting to think it might have to do with alignment

A) the Starter ring gear not being properly shimmed to align the front and rear primary chain. And when the kickback starts it's generating torque through the slack in the chain and twisting the ring gear when the jackshaft is trying to recede and occasionally getting caught at a funny angle causing the "snap".

I'm looking at the 08 manual and there is a Note: "Install Clutch hub shim if it was previously removed" .

Great fucking note! Except it doesn't tell me what the spec is supposed to be! If I don't have one how am I supposed to know I need it?

I recall Baker coming out with a hardened shim for this application. I need to see If anyone has recorded what is considered acceptable for primary chain alignment.

Also, on the flip side there is a spacer on the front sprocket so have to make sure that's not the issue either. Manual states "zero offset spacer"

B)Incorrect Transmission shimming causing starter to be misaligned in primary housing.

I'm hopeful it's A) that's an easier fix. I also don't think the transmission could be so far out of line to cause the issue but it's possible and I'll double check mine.

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bearman · Sep 10, 2015

BWG56 said:
... if you are using a slam button, are you pushing the starter shaft/gear out to engage teeth in clutch hub? .......I don't think I would want my finger on it when it kicks.

No

the slam button installs on the solenoid and just pushes the contactor down inside the solenoid, instead of the electromagnet doing it. If the starter kicks back it will not kick the slam button.

A slam button will bypass the solenoid draw so the most available current can get to the starter.

It also bypasses ANY AND ALL safeties and WILL activate the starter when pressed. It wont matter if the clutch is pulled, the run button has been pressed, or if the key is even on. If there is still juice in the battery when you press the slam button the starter WILL turn.

badyellowvette said:
I think I will start checking current draw on my starter and CR's. If I can figure out how to do that. I believe checking the battery current when trying to start?

you would need a "clamp-on" ammeter to check the current draw. I don't think current draw of the CR's are an issue but the starter solenoid might be. The starter will pull something like 300 amps, so if the solenoid coil is pulling 30 amps, that's 10% and if your battery is only capable of putting out around 300, it could be a problem. Notice I said "A" problem (it might not be the cause of your problem) and "IF" the solenoid is pulling 30 amps.

Another thing to check is the actual starter wires. Both the big red wire from the solenoid to the battery , the big black wire from the battery to the transmission and the short big wire from the solenoid to the starter. Any of these wires can get corroded internally and can wind up causing low current to the starter.

BWG56 · Sep 10, 2015

badyellowvette said:
Don't have a slam button. I thought a slam button was to engage the starter when there is an electrical problem. Don't see how it relates to the problem we are having.

Coolbreeze:
This will sound dumb, but my wife recommended I roll my bike forward a few feet before hitting the start button. It worked 99% of the time. Start button crapped out after a while and I got a slam button from Curtis and Ive never had a jackshaft clunk.Get a slam button.

Th3InfamousI said:
I'm starting to think it might have to do with alignment

A) the Starter ring gear not being properly shimmed to align the front and rear primary chain. And when the kickback starts it's generating torque through the slack in the chain and twisting the ring gear when the jackshaft is trying to recede and occasionally getting caught at a funny angle causing the "snap".

B)Incorrect Transmission shimming causing starter to be misaligned in primary housing.
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I think your on to something with A, its seems like the starter gear goes out but doesn't catch enough of the ring and slips off when the torque is applied.
As far as B, possible, but on my bike I noticed the starter mount was busted when I removed the tranny for a rebuild and wrote down the placement of the shims for the tranny and when reinstalling the tranny shims, they were spot on for the same placement, and I followed the manual for tranny shimming to double check for proper shimming. So In my case I can rule B out.

BWG56 · Sep 10, 2015

the slam button installs on the solenoid and just pushes the contactor down inside the solenoid, instead of the electromagnet doing it. If the starter kicks back it will not kick the slam button.

Thanks, good to know

Th3InfamousI · Sep 10, 2015

BWG56 said:
I followed the manual for tranny shimming to double check for proper shimming. So In my case I can rule B out.

I don't think b is too likely either, but possible. I just think it has to be very far out of spec to see the issue down the line.

All I can find is Harley recommends +-.03" difference for the chain which isn't much! I can't find a BDM recommendation

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bearman · Sep 10, 2015

badyellowvette said:
Could said alignments be off if nothing has ever been taken apart from stock?

Yes. Things come loose.

Th3InfamousI said:
I'm starting to think it might have to do with alignment

A) the Starter ring gear not being properly shimmed to align the front and rear primary chain. ......

B)Incorrect Transmission shimming causing starter to be misaligned in primary housing....

Not likely.

For A) A chain is way more forgiving about being misaligned than a belt would be. About the worst thing that should happen is premature wear on the chain and sprockets and eventually bearings.

For B) The starter ring gear is on the clutch basket, which is mounted on the transmission shaft, which is mounted in the transmission housing. The starter is mounted on this same transmission housing.

So no amount of shimming the transmission to the frame, or misalignment of the transmission to the engine, should change the alignment of the starter to the starter ring gear (unless the clutch basket is flexing).

Coolbreezin · Sep 10, 2015

The first 7 starters I went through were because of jackshaft breakage. It was determined that my inner primary case was cut wrong. The little hole for the pinion gear was not exactly correct so the jackshaft would flex, and break.

Th3InfamousI · Sep 11, 2015

bearman said:
Yes. Things come loose.

Not likely.

For A) A chain is way more forgiving about being misaligned than a belt would be. About the worst thing that should happen is premature wear on the chain and sprockets and eventually bearings.

For B) The starter ring gear is on the clutch basket, which is mounted on the transmission shaft, which is mounted in the transmission housing. The starter is mounted on this same transmission housing.

So no amount of shimming the transmission to the frame, or misalignment of the transmission to the engine, should change the alignment of the starter to the starter ring gear (unless the clutch basket is flexing).

I agree with a misalignment of the chain you will get premature bearing wear. I also agree that the chain is more forgiving however we are talking about the start sequence the absolute most force on that chain during it's lifecycle there is a reason why it's doubled and that's to prevent horizontal movement I agree.

I will argue about the transmission being out of alignment which causes your inner primary to be misaligned which then would cause the clutch basket and ring gear to be misaligned. Not to mention If the trans isn't square the starter isn't square either since it sits on top. Right?

Also what would be the purpose of BDM note to install the shim if you have one? If it doesn't require an alignment.

Harley service manual also state if the primary chain is out of line don't use shims realign the transmission.

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Wired my compression releases to my starter.

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