Transmission shifting by itself. Need a little help
- Thread starter BadBrad
- Start date
BadBrad
2005 Pitbull
I called and talked to Baker. From what the guy there said, if the pawl is slightly out of adjustment, it makes it hard to shift up or down (depending on which direction the pawl may have shifted) but should not make the tranny slip out of gear. He's leaning more towards Troppushcet thinking the problem most likely lies with the shift forks. I'll tear into it and let you know what I find. Thanks again all!!!
troppushcet
Member
You are very welcome.... glad to help. Hope you get that dog back on the road.
Tattooedirish1
The Wicked Irishman
You're were pretty funny in this thread Moe, Must have been the hangover from the RMD House run. :2thumbs:
V
Guru
After having it repaired by Baker and doing all the work your self you're looking at a little over $650 bucks:bang:
Baker just rebuilt mine. bent shift rod, 2 shift forks and the rebuild kit, plus the standard stuff I had to buy local, oil, gaskets, beer. Havent finished puttin mine back together yet. Hope yours is just the pawl adjustment
And yes thanks Moe for the explanation:2thumbs:
BadBrad
2005 Pitbull
V
Guru
I hear ya loud and clear. Mines all on Visa/ M/C:bang:
Moespeeds
Well-Known Member
Christ kid you still didn't open that thing up? If my bike ain't running I won't sleep! If it ain't the pawl adjustment, just replace the forks and shaft the forks run on, it won't be real expensive, it's an idiot proof job, and should take care of it. When you open the transmission, take a picture of the position of the shift drum, and the location of the shift forks. Makes getting it all back together much easier. Pull the starter so you have room to work, take off the top cover, pull the 4 bolts in the pillar blocks that hold down the drum, and take it off. The shaft the forks ride on is held in by a set screw in the trap door on the side. Pull the screw, slide out the rod. Note the position of the forks first and move them around a bit to get an idea of how they work. Get a flashlight and really look down in there. Drain the tranny into a CLEAN pan and dump some kerosene or acetone down there to wash everything off. If I'm draining a transmission that had redline in it, I always dump some acetone in there to thin that shit out before I drain it. Look for chipped or missing teeth, signs of rubbing/scuffs, and check fluid for metal. Spin it all around in the various gears and check it all really good. I'd go ahead and just order the forks and rod ahead of time. I didn't notice that you had 18k on the bike when I first read your post. You're due.
troppushcet
Member
To properly do it, you need to place the bike on a stand towards the rear wheel, lift the bike up enough where it will sit staight up, back wheel will still be touching the ground. Unadjust the clutch cable at the center of the cable. Remove your exhaust system. Remove the center cap on your front pulley cover, exposing the clutch push rod and jam nut. Loosen jam nut with a 11/16 wrench and a 7/32 allen wrench. Remove clutch push rod. There are 3 5/16 allen bolts holding the pulley cover on and either a slotted head screw or a small allen head bolt holding the rear part of the belt gaurd attached to the the pulley cover. Remove has one with cable still attached to cover, spin around towards front of the bike. There are 2 1/4 allen bolts that help retain the pulley nut, remove them. The pulley nut is a left handed thread, remove the nut. Start draining your transmission fluid and then loosen your rear axle and loosen your belt tension, this will make it easier to remove your pulley. Remove both side covers. Remove your top cover. When removing the shift drum, do not over extend the spring loaded fork that rotates the shift drum. Remove the jam screw, then the fork rod. I would not remove the shift forks until you have the new ones, then replace them one at a time. The last time I checked prices.... shift forks were $29.00 ea, fork rod $5.00, top cover gasket $3.00 and transmission fluid $7.00... this could have changed. When you get to that point.... let me know and I will help you on the reassembly and adjustments. You can do this.
BadBrad
2005 Pitbull
Thanks guys. Archery season opened up a couple of weeks ago and I've just been pre-occupied. Funny thing, Rocky always asks me if I "caught" any deer, like I left with a rod and reel to deer hunt. I'll get the parts ordered today and change out parts as soon as they arrive. I appreciate all the feedback. I think the removal/installation may vary slightly, depending on the model. My Pitbull has the oil tank below and behind the tranny giving me a little more top clearance above the tranny. I'll print out both replies and take from each, as I need it. Thanks again, Brad
PS, Moe, can't remember the last time anyone called me "Kid". Maybe I'll get lucky and get carded buying beer on my way home today.
Have a great weekend all!
PS, Moe, can't remember the last time anyone called me "Kid". Maybe I'll get lucky and get carded buying beer on my way home today.
Have a great weekend all!
Scott@BAKER
Member
A lot of good comments on this post. There are a couple of scenarios that could be going on.
A)From the original post I am not convinced that there is an issue with the shifter pawl. When a shifter pawl comes out of adjustment there a couple of things that can happen:
1) All up shifts become difficult and the transmission has a hard time going into gear on the up shifts. This due to the shifter pawl having a greater gap to the front pin (towards the front of the bike) on the drum. (When doing a shifter pawl adjustment in 3rd gear the shifter pawl should have an equal gap on both sides of the two pins. (I have a picture for this but I don't have an account to upload it. So if anyone wants it let me know and you can post it.)) In this case when you physically up shift on the foot shift lever it takes more travel for the shifter pawl to hit the pin on the drum to start the rotation. The shift lever will then stop the throw of the shift moment before the gears have fully engaged. Causing a difficult shift.
2) The exact opposite would occur for difficult down shifts. The gap on the shifter pawl in third gear to the rear pin on the drum would be greater and cause the hard down shift.
3) This is a rare scenario. This would be an issue when the eccentric adjuster screw becomes totally loose. This can cause issues with not being able to up shift or down shift due to the body of the screw stopping the shifter pawl's movement. The eccentric part of the adjuster screw can also hit the shift drum and limit its movement. The other part of this is if the adjust screw backs out of the window in the shifter pawl and creates too much movement for the drum causing an "over-shift" action.
A lot of rambling on why I don't believe it is the pawl, but it is important information.
B) Bent shift forks or fork rod.
1)There is a chance the fork rod could be the issue. But not all of the facts lead up to this. Depending on the severity of a bent fork rod this could cause the transmission to not shift into gear. This could make it impossible to shift into gear as the fork can not slide freely on the fork rod. This could have happened if there are other issues, but this would not deduce that the transmission is shifting on its own.
2) Bent shift forks are generally going to cause the transmission to 'pop' in and out of gear. When a transmission fork is bent in can not fully slide the gear over to get the proper dog tooth engagement. So when the throttle is let of the dogs will push away from each other. Under throttle the dogs will try and pull each other back together. This has to do with the dog tooth angle cut into the gears themselves.
Ok.. Ok.. enough of my dissertation about transmission diagnosis. From what I have read about the scenario it sounds to me like one of the shafts (mainshaft or countershaft) is moving laterally. The mainshaft moving laterally can be caused by 1 of 2 things. The first being the clutch/clutch nut coming loose. The 2nd could be a main shaft bearing in the case going. This would cause the mainshaft to move separately from the countershaft and shift drum causing it to pop out of gear and not shift. The same would go if the countershaft came loose. This could be caused by the countershaft bearing in the case going. Or the countershaft retainer bolt came loose.
Hopefully that makes sense..
A)From the original post I am not convinced that there is an issue with the shifter pawl. When a shifter pawl comes out of adjustment there a couple of things that can happen:
1) All up shifts become difficult and the transmission has a hard time going into gear on the up shifts. This due to the shifter pawl having a greater gap to the front pin (towards the front of the bike) on the drum. (When doing a shifter pawl adjustment in 3rd gear the shifter pawl should have an equal gap on both sides of the two pins. (I have a picture for this but I don't have an account to upload it. So if anyone wants it let me know and you can post it.)) In this case when you physically up shift on the foot shift lever it takes more travel for the shifter pawl to hit the pin on the drum to start the rotation. The shift lever will then stop the throw of the shift moment before the gears have fully engaged. Causing a difficult shift.
2) The exact opposite would occur for difficult down shifts. The gap on the shifter pawl in third gear to the rear pin on the drum would be greater and cause the hard down shift.
3) This is a rare scenario. This would be an issue when the eccentric adjuster screw becomes totally loose. This can cause issues with not being able to up shift or down shift due to the body of the screw stopping the shifter pawl's movement. The eccentric part of the adjuster screw can also hit the shift drum and limit its movement. The other part of this is if the adjust screw backs out of the window in the shifter pawl and creates too much movement for the drum causing an "over-shift" action.
A lot of rambling on why I don't believe it is the pawl, but it is important information.
B) Bent shift forks or fork rod.
1)There is a chance the fork rod could be the issue. But not all of the facts lead up to this. Depending on the severity of a bent fork rod this could cause the transmission to not shift into gear. This could make it impossible to shift into gear as the fork can not slide freely on the fork rod. This could have happened if there are other issues, but this would not deduce that the transmission is shifting on its own.
2) Bent shift forks are generally going to cause the transmission to 'pop' in and out of gear. When a transmission fork is bent in can not fully slide the gear over to get the proper dog tooth engagement. So when the throttle is let of the dogs will push away from each other. Under throttle the dogs will try and pull each other back together. This has to do with the dog tooth angle cut into the gears themselves.
Ok.. Ok.. enough of my dissertation about transmission diagnosis. From what I have read about the scenario it sounds to me like one of the shafts (mainshaft or countershaft) is moving laterally. The mainshaft moving laterally can be caused by 1 of 2 things. The first being the clutch/clutch nut coming loose. The 2nd could be a main shaft bearing in the case going. This would cause the mainshaft to move separately from the countershaft and shift drum causing it to pop out of gear and not shift. The same would go if the countershaft came loose. This could be caused by the countershaft bearing in the case going. Or the countershaft retainer bolt came loose.
Hopefully that makes sense..
Excellent writeup of transmission diagnostics! Appreciate you spending the time to help us out! :2thumbs:
Thanks!
Thanks!
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troppushcet
Member
Yes depending on the model, depends on what you may need to do? But, in your case, you will not need to mess with your oil tank!!! This is replacing your shift forks and fork rod. If you were removing the transmission, then you would need to remove your oil tank. Follow the intructions I gave you and you will repair your bike. If you don't have the tools or the stand to place your bike on, then we go another route. But you can fix your bike, following what I instruct..... trust me.... I know how to do this, done this many times.
Scott@BAKER
Member
No problem. I am going to try and be on here more. If any one needs any help or if you think I can help in a thread don't hesitate to contact me.
-Scott
Five Five
Well-Known Member
Ditto ...Good info Scott...
BadBrad
2005 Pitbull
I've been out of the country for the past few days. Had to go to Chicago for business and yes, for me, that's out of the country. Thanks Scott for the write up. I swear I'll get around to getting this done soon. Unlike many, winter only last for a few weeks during February, so I do want to get the dog back up and running. Thanks again for that detailed information.
BadBrad
2005 Pitbull
Well, I finally got around to busting into the tranny. The fork rod pulled out smoothly and when rolled on a glass table, appears to be straight. The shift forks also look to be in good shape with very little wear and no obvious bends. They all 3 slide back in the grooves with no problems and are not binding like I would think if they were bent. Since they are not totally flat, can't place them on a glass table to check for minor issues, but all appears to be normal. From Scott's write up, maybe I need to look at the mainshaft. I guess I can start with the clutch nut. It wasn't long ago I replaced the clutch basket but locked the clutch nut with red locktite and a lot of torque. Still, something is causing the bike to come out of gear and not want to shift back into gear after that happens. Just thought I would update this post and continue with my quest for the truth. Also, the mainshaft on my dog broke last summer and was replaced with the upgraded mainshaft. I didn't do that work but can only assume and hope that the bearings were replaced at that time as well. I'll have to talk to the guy that did the work to get more info on that. Assuming the bearings were also replaced and with only a couple of thousand miles on both the bearings and mainshaft, I'm thinking they are probably still in good shape.
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