Transmission/primary major leak

[Bluesdog]

Looking for some help with a major leak I developed. I originally thought it was the starter since it was coming from that general area and just thought one of the seals let loose since it was spraying oil all over the back left side of the tire/fender/brake caliper. Sent that out to the Kaptain, and just went for a test drive yesterday and problem is still there. After further inspection...it looks like the leak is coming from where the transmission connects to the primary. I had 20oz in both the transmission and the primary, now I just pulled 28oz out of the tranny and 12oz out of the primary, so the tranny is scavenging oil from the primary...any common problems that would cause this? Where do I go from here? Bike shifts hard, but that's nothing new, no vibration/sounds/ or anything else out of the norm, except for the oil slick I'm laying down.

 

[FrankBDPS]

Threre may be a breather on you're primary that is plugged and causing the oil to be pushed into the transmission. There are threads on the forum about that issue.

 

[Bluesdog]

One of my first thoughts as well, primary vent is clear.

 

[Bluesdog]

I'll give Baker a shout tomorrow, thanks for the help

 

[SKOGDOG]

Please help me out here you more experienced mechanics. I think through this stuff and always miss something....
I have not heard of this before, and it seems that in addition to a defective seal, for oil to get into the trans from the primary there would need to be positive pressure in the primary or a vacuum in the transmission. The oil level in the primary is below the transmission input shaft by a couple of inches, so it wouldn't just seep in there while it' sitting on the kickstand or something. I once had an oil leak thru the crank seal into my primary, but that was engine oil under pressure.....I know that oil slops around like crazy in the primary, and since the trans and primary do not have oil pressure and they both have vents, air and oil pressure should not be issues.
Is it reasonable for that much oil to get through a leaky seal with no positive pressure building up to force it through? Seems like 8 oz is a lot.

 

[RRRUFF]

You may have a crankshaft seal leaking crankcase pressure into the primary causing a positive pressure there and forcing oil into the tranny.

 

[SKOGDOG]

You may have a crankshaft seal leaking crankcase pressure into the primary causing a positive pressure there and forcing oil into the tranny.

But pressure could not build if the primary vent is clear--right?

 

[RRRUFF]

True but it could be building pressure faster than its venting. Not suggesting this is the problem, just one possible scenario.

 

[FrankBDPS]

So would that mean the crank case is not venting properly or God forbid there is a reason the crank case is being over pressurized?

 

[RRRUFF]

Stands to reason that you either have a bad seal on the trans input shaft or a bad seal on the crank shaft or both.

 

[Bluesdog]

Update on this issue, primary fluid is definitely going into the transmission, overfilling the transmission and puking out the transmission overflow line. I thought it was due to an over pressurized primary due to a blocked vent...but now that I've found a large amount of fine metal shavings in the oil I believe this is something more serious. Upon removing the outer primary I noticed there is some play at the clutch pack/hub assembly...moved left/right-up/down atleast 2mm...clutch hub nut is tight enough for me not to back it off with my hand, but I need to get a socket to make sure it's not loose. Should a clutch hub assembly have that much play in it?

 

[FrankBDPS]

Nope. Keep tearing it apart. Was there metal lying in the primary case?

 

[Bluesdog]

No shavings lying in the case, but taking a magnet through the drained primary oil turned up a lot of fingernail sized shavings...given this oil only had about 300miles on it..I thought I had it fixed but obviously not. The transmission had a lot of small shiney chrome chips in it, damn near looked like a metal flake paint.

 

[SKOGDOG]

No it should not. 2mm is about like two dots here.. and is probably understating the actual amount of play because the primary is currently assembled with sprockets, chains and tensioners and what not in place.
If the transmission shaft has play, bearing wear in the transmission should be suspected. This could also lose oil, as the seal might be intact (or not), and the bearing itself could be leaking....Remove the primary cover and the clutch basket and see if there is play in the shaft. To get the pulleys off, you have to remove the both the clutch hub nut and the crankshaft pulley nut too--so--both pulleys and primary chain---all come off at once (there's a good video on UTube). Note the clutch hub is torqued to 80 ft lbs (left hand thread) and the crank is 165 ft lbs. Now check and see how much play is in the shaft. Sounds like you may need to have the transmission pulled and rebuilt with new seals and bearings.
I'm sure there are adequate threads on the above disassembly procedures here, and of course in the BDM Manual.
Pulling the transmission is another type of animal. A shop with a lift and jacks are in order, as you have to jack up the ass end and drop the shock absorbers (on my K9 anyhow) to get at the 4 transmission bolts. Note the position of any shims under the transmission....they should be replaced in the same locations.
Blacktopper knows a lot more about this than I do...maybe he'll chime in too.
Then.....call Andrew Barnes at 607.727.8545 (barnesperfomancecycles) to discuss shipping and a rebuild.

 

[SKOGDOG]

I'm still confused about how 8 pz. of oil can get from the primary into the transmission. The level of oil in the primary is below the transmission shaft/seal by several inches. It isn't like there is oil leaking from the crank seal and filling the primary, or bluesdog would have more ounces in the primary than the trans, and that's not what his first post says the measurements were.
Doesn't make sense..but in my case, that is a very long list....

 

[FrankBDPS]

On the older bikes that are left hand drive the primary vents into the transmission thru the shaft that the clutch rod comes thru. Not sure how the newer RSD primaries vent but I do think they have a separate vent. I think he is going to find a couple of issues here.

 

[SKOGDOG]

That may be it...my K9 has a separate vent to outside air. On his page, Bluesdog sez he rides an 05 Ridgeback..no worries about removing the shocks on that one (haha).
I'm sure that is a 117" with a 300 RSD...powertrain essentially the same as my K9, but I'm unfamiliar with the primary vent on those.

 

[Bluesdog]

Yes it is a rigid, bastard lets me know every time I hit a nice bump lol and it vents from the backside of the primary from a small screen, also looks like it vents from the inspection plate as well. The engine oil level has stayed a constant level throughout this, given the amount of oil that is coming from the transmission vent hose I'm confident it's not an issue with the crankcase flowing into the primary. This is the third time ive put both 20oz in the primary and transmission and have come up with excess of 26oz from transmission and have pulled 12oz from primary. I got the socket on clutch hub and lo and behold it definitely wasn't torqued to 80ftlbs...looked like it was at 40ft lbs,..but there is still play in the clutch hub assembly so I'm going to strip it down tomorrow and post what I find on here. Thanks for Andrews # skogdog, I've got a feeling I'm going to need it

 

[Bluesdog]

Got everything stripped down and have found the source of the metal...the clutch hub assembly had so much play in it that it was torquing itself into the primary case and stripping the metal off of that. The trans main shaft doesn't have any lateral movement, but it will move up a half centimeter...and you can see in the picture trans oil is actually leaking from the bottom of the shaft into the primary. I'm assuming this is a main bearing issue?

 

[c.c.rider]

Sounds like a rebuild and replace the shafts all so.