SYN OR NO

07bigdog

07bigdog

07BIGDOG
I've got a 124 s&s in my 07 K9. It was shipped to me from s&s with Mobil 1 synethic oil. At 460 miles i dropped all the oils and replaced them with Amsoil 20w50 synthetic in the motor and primary, and V-Twin Redline heavy shockproof in the transmission. I've got 1800 miles now with no problems or leaks.
 
awags

awags

Member
Anyone know the purpose of 'synthetic blend'? I ordered a case of Shaefers 20w50 through work. It came 20w50 synthetic blend racing formula. Thats what I've been using, seems fine. I am experiencing some noise lately I'm trying to pinpoint. Not sure if its top end or primary chain area, tension is good. Only hear it when motor is just floating or balanced with my speed, not reving up or down. kind of a tinny sound.
 
B

BubbleHead

Big Dog Biker test account
Rutro, I use 2 1/2 quarts of Mobil 1 20 -50w V-twin oil and 1/2 quart lucas oil supplement in mine. I change it every 2500 miles like clockwork. I'v got 13,000 on mine after 1 year. I run mine a lot obviously. I waited till I hit 3000 miles because the techs at BDM told me to give the rings a good chance to seat and break in before switching over to synth. I did and my engine runs 'Golden" doesn't get hot and hardly any valve train noise especially since I started using the Lucas oil Supplement. I only use S&S oil filters. I use HD shockproof in my tranny and RedLine MTL in my primary. Hope this gives you a tiny amount of insight.
 
Fibersnake

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
Many many previous threads on the Dino verse Syn issues. So if some are thinking about switching, would recommend to search for the other threads also and get as much information as you can.

Also I can find no where in my warranty paper or the manual that says anything about the use of syn may void the warranty. Not saying it is not there, however if you made the switch and a dealer or BDM was to say it would void the warranty, I would advise that they you have them point it out to you in the paper work given to you.

Verbal and opinos do not mean shit when it comes to warranty so regardless of what is any of our opinions, in regards to using syn in the engine, someone please show me where it is specified not to.

My O&M (granted everyones may be different) specifies:

"Engine Oil: Use only premium 20W50 V-Twin, detergent motorcycle oil.."

Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 and many others meet that requirement. If one was to have a warranty claimed turn down strictly due to using a synthetic motor oil that meets the above, IMHO I would find a good representative and figtht it tooth and nail. Key is sticking to the 20W50 V-Twin Detergent motorcycle oil, using something outside of that may void the warranty such as using a 10W40 non detergent rated for for diesel only.

As far as break in, many recommend that you wait until the engine is broken in before switching. I agree with that, but is an opinion. Ferrari, Corvette, and the others due in fact come with Mobil 1 in some of their vehicle, then again our engines are not built to Ferrari Standards either in a controled very ultra precission engine assembly area with superior rings and absoulte honing and many other factors. As far as S&S goes, they would no there engines also and have no issues with it, however may of our 117 were not assembled strictly by S&S either and BDM is providing the warranty and not S&S.

Bottom line to the best of my knowledge, synthectic have more consistant molecular structure, tend to be more tolerant to high temperture, and tend to be more consistent in viscosity across the design operating parameters.

All of the proper oil be it dino or syn will be rated and certified under SAE and API standards and if that is the driving factor. Syn will tend to clean out old parrfins and due to consistent molecular size, leak through any areas that are not welled seal more than dino. This is most prevelent in older vehicle with lots of miles. Syn will not cause a leak, but if there is a potiential area for a leak, syn with the detergents and consistent molecule will find it and thus a leak is seen. The dino with the parafins ill have the parafins (wax) as well as dirt and larger molecules pluggint the hole that is there.

HD is pushing very hard with their SYN 3 Synthetic and it what comes on all the new bikes and is also what they recommend for many of the (though not all) models.

It is you call, but do recommend that any that are interested search the other threads on this with in this forum as well as some real research such as API white papers, other forums, etc. and then make your own judgment.

For me and many others, running syn with no issues. Just change rotuinely as you would Dino. Would caution against trying to extend change intervals, regardless of any hype from any manufacture, due to IMHO, why risk excessive wear and possible breakdown to save $35-40 on a approx $9000 engine???

Safe riding to all
 
Black Dawg

Black Dawg

Active Member
Back in the early 90's when GM was developing their LT1 engine for the vette, they did some testing using M1 oil. I believe they tried different change intervals of 3500, 7500 and 15000 (I recall) miles. After engine tear downs all the motors were within new specs. Also they discovered that they no longer needed engine oil coolers since the oil temps were substantially lower.

Now, this was back when Mobil 1 was a Group 4 oil, it's now a Group 3. They switched primarily because of costs to compete against other new syn based oils that were using cheaper blends (there was a lawsuit over the meaning of "synthetic" and they lost).

Amsoil is still a Group 4 oil (though they do sell a Group 3 version at a discount price).

This doesn't mean that a Group 3 oil is bad, or even regular dino is bad. Both are fine. But there are advantages to be had with a Group 4 oil over the others. Whether you'll ever notice much of a difference is debatable. But a friend changed is oil in his HD from the Harley syn3 to Amsoil and his oil temp went down 20 degrees.

I use Amsoil 20w50 Race in the engine. Cheap insurance, IMO.
 
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lee

lee

Well-Known Member
interesting

also interesting you say you probably notice much of a difference which must be right. Having said that I was using Amsoil before my last change when I switched to Mobil 1 and for some reason, and I cannot say specifically why, I prefer the Amsoil and will be going back to it on my next change.
 
Fibersnake

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
Lee have you given any thought of possibly using MOTUL products? They have a Class V 100% Synthetic and have been at it for a very long time.

I think their 7100 is the right one for V-Twin 20W50.

Also think that there is some other European Syn that may be pretty good, something to research possibly, especially if you have problems getting Amsoil or other US common types.

Also, if not mistaken, the Mobil 1 V-Twin is still a class IV oil and only some of the Mobil 1 labled Synthetic are Class III. Mainly the regular Mobil 1, it is my understanding that the Mobil 1 Extended Performance, Motorcycle Oil and some of the Diesel are still PAO Class IV full synthetic oils.

Will try to confirm with Exxon/Mobil next week to make sure that is still the case.
 
lee

lee

Well-Known Member
not sue I've ever heard of MOTUL - I can get Amsoil no problem at all and recently found a supplier of Mobil 1. The Amsoil is VERY expensive for me though (much more so than the Mobil 1) but I do like to use it.

Thanks Fiber
 
Fibersnake

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
Lee,

Amsoil may be even more expensive than the Mobil 1 due to it be a Class IV syn. Depending on the specific Mobil 1 that is available over there, it may not even be considered a Syn. The Class IV and Class V are ture syn. with the exception of in America, which as mentioned previously, Class III based oil with some syn additions and properties can be lablel here as Syn but still be mineral based oil.

Unless something has changed over there, many of the recent Class III mineral based oil that are labeled as Syn here will not be there. When you find Mobil 1 on the local market, is it labled as Fully Syn or a Blend or not at all?

The MOTUL is a French Based Company and is very respected product. Basically been around for years and orginal started in USA back before Chevron break-up. Bought by French owners and been there since the 30's.

Oh here is the link for the proper type for the V-Twin 4 Stroke 20W50 called MOTUL 7100:

http://www.motul.fr/uk/compresse_GammeMoto_UK.pdf
Motul - car advice, motorcycle advice, ester oil

Here is a link for MOTUL Overview

Motul

Many many Motorcycles Racers have won some big races over in Europe as well as vehicle with MOTUL. Ask around some of the MC shops over there and would be looking into. May be expensive though, I know over here it is one of the most expensive out there, but then again it is a Class V based oil.

Good luck and let us know what you find over across the water in the Europe Branded Oils. Would be interested.
 
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PROFLYER

PROFLYER

SWOLE
Vegas said:
Apples and oranges.......
Click to expand...
Hardly, all internal combustion engines. Do a search, you'll find blog after blog by petroleum engineer after petroleum engineer. I've read so many and they're all about the same, even 3000 on dino is overkill.
 
Raywood

Raywood

The Pirate
Staff member
Calendar Participant
Troop Supporter
Amazing these dabates continue and continue on any forum or website or blog!

Me, I've changed on both my Big Dogs at the 500 miles service to Amsoil. I use a re-usable oil filter that I clean regularly.
And many of you will snear but I'm known to let my oil run over the 3000 mile mark even over 5000 miles a couple times.
I check oil level weekly and top it off when it needs it if it does. Coming cross country from Daytona this year I only used a 1/3 of a quart.
I think I take good care of my bikes and I do tend to put a few miles on them and I've never had a motor problem on either Big Dog. Mines running stronger than ever and ready for it's next 5000 mile trip in a couple weeks.

Wonder if I should change that oil from the last Redwood Run trip before I leave! :D


:flag: :flag: :flag:
 
TCALZ06

TCALZ06

Well-Known Member
Black Dawg said:
Back in the early 90's when GM was developing their LT1 engine for the vette, they did some testing using M1 oil. I believe they tried different change intervals of 3500, 7500 and 15000 (I recall) miles. After engine tear downs all the motors were within new specs. Also they discovered that they no longer needed engine oil coolers since the oil temps were substantially lower.

Now, this was back when Mobil 1 was a Group 4 oil, it's now a Group 3. They switched primarily because of costs to compete against other new syn based oils that were using cheaper blends (there was a lawsuit over the meaning of "synthetic" and they lost).

Amsoil is still a Group 4 oil (though they do sell a Group 3 version at a discount price).

This doesn't mean that a Group 3 oil is bad, or even regular dino is bad. Both are fine. But there are advantages to be had with a Group 4 oil over the others. Whether you'll ever notice much of a difference is debatable. But a friend changed is oil in his HD from the Harley syn3 to Amsoil and his oil temp went down 20 degrees.

I use Amsoil 20w50 Race in the engine. Cheap insurance, IMO.
Click to expand...
You are right on here. There is a bike builder who just did a test I think in Florida with Amsoil and found about the same temp difference.
My bike has 8psi more pressure at idle at 110+ degrees than it had with regular oil at 90+ degrees.
I rode to laughlin and then got stuck in the event traffic and my scoot got so hot it was not fun keeping my leg by the exhaust.
Since the change to Amsoil and dual oil coolers I've rode at 115 degrees and it's great.
The stuff works and so do the coolers
 
rutro123

rutro123

Active Member
so your saying i should use syn or no? a simple yes or no works:roll: just kidding thanks for all the info. think im gonna try syn. but now confused on the difference in class 3 and class 4?:confused:
 
Fibersnake

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
rutro123 said:
so your saying i should use syn or no? a simple yes or no works:roll: just kidding thanks for all the info. think im gonna try syn. but now confused on the difference in class 3 and class 4?:confused:
Click to expand...
Class III Syn have a mineral (dino) basestock with some addition of PAO (normaly) synthetic componets. This allows the oil to have the lowere cost of dino with many advantages of the full synthetic. The few difference for the msot part are not that important for most such as the extream low pour point and extra higher temps.

Class IV are true synthetic that are made in various methods but do not have mineral basestock. The basestock is derived from the synthnisis of other molecules. Class V is the highest synthetic with normal process of ester based such as vegatables. Very expensive, but very very good. Exceed most the needs for most anyone, but the best as far as syns go and you pay the price for it also.

An Example would be Castrol GTX Synthetic (Class III vast majority is dino based with some super processing and the addition of some PAO Class IV synt and other additives).

Amsoil, Class IV (true synthetic-good oil)
Motul Class V (true synthetic- very high dollar stuff).

One item of note, the Class III that are labeled in the United States would not be considered synthetic in Europe or Asia, in those areas only Class IV and Class V can be labeled as Synthetic.

Main thing is regardless if it good dino, syn blend, syn or whatever, is to maintain regular oil change intervals and to use oil of the proper rating and design. In our case it is recommend that the use of 20W50 V-Twin, detergent oil.
 
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