Cam Change

Energy One

roadie1389

Well-Known Member
Looking to do the 585 cam this winter. Based on what I been looking at:

S&S Cam 33-5109
Johnson Lifters ( Part # 91-880 x4 ) - Need to verify
James Cam change gasket kit - I think I'm going to go with the AFM version P271450
Cam shim kit

AS for the pushrods - Looks like the Timesavers are the ones recommended. Anybody have any thoughts on these? What else am I missing?
 

mleach72

Well-Known Member
How many miles on your lifters Eric? If not a lot, you can get by with just the cam and the gasket. S&S recommends replacing lifters around 20-25k miles I believe. If you are near that, then you might as well change them while you are in there. Yeah, you will need adjustable pushrods that can be removed to get the lifters out. The stock rods are adjustable, but they don't adjust short enough to remove them. I'm not sure why S&S did that. It kinda defeats the purpose of adjustable rods. Whatever ones you choose, find out how many threads per inch they are. You will need to know that for the final adjustment.
 

roadie1389

Well-Known Member
How many miles on your lifters Eric? If not a lot, you can get by with just the cam and the gasket. S&S recommends replacing lifters around 20-25k miles I believe. If you are near that, then you might as well change them while you are in there. Yeah, you will need adjustable pushrods that can be removed to get the lifters out. The stock rods are adjustable, but they don't adjust short enough to remove them. I'm not sure why S&S did that. It kinda defeats the purpose of adjustable rods. Whatever ones you choose, find out how many threads per inch they are. You will need to know that for the final adjustment.
I got 30k now. Just not sure the end result diff between timesavers and the quickies.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

HMAN

I just like my Freedom
Alrighty Eric, now for the con. You may experience some low rpm issues. Stuttering @ under 2000 rpm is what Im seeing. Twist and hold on tho. Pulls like a 7 day train. Hiway @ 65-75 smooth as can be. Around town is similar to slow cruising a fat cammed hotrod.
 

Jersey Big Mike

100K mile club
Alrighty Eric, now for the con. You may experience some low rpm issues. Stuttering @ under 2000 rpm is what Im seeing. Twist and hold on tho. Pulls like a 7 day train. Hiway @ 65-75 smooth as can be. Around town is similar to slow cruising a fat cammed hotrod.
What did it do to your gas mileage when you changed to the 585?
 

Jersey Big Mike

100K mile club
Im around 40-42 if I memeber right? Been a few yrs since I had her out n about for amy length of time. I'll have a accurite number @ Daves
I've been getting 39-42 with 10% ethanl gas, 44-50 with non-ethanol gas on the bike.
Got 40 on the first tank so far with the carb bike (and it is running a little rich as far as I can tell)

I've always been told that the mileage drops noticeably when you go to the 585 (and I really don'twant to do that)
 

mleach72

Well-Known Member
Here is my experience with the 585 cam and fuel mileage. Now you have to understand that I have a mikuni. You can taylor the fuel a little more precisely to what the engine wants. You can change the needle to a leaner 98 needle. Stock is 97. Changing the needle only leans the mixture in the 5-25% throttle range. This is where all of your cruising is done. I tried the 98 needle with the stock cam. The bike ran ok, but you could just tell that it was too lean. Throttle response under 25% throttle was sluggish and maintaining speed on a hill required a bigger throttle opening, which uses more fuel. I never got any better fuel mileage with the 98 needle. Sometimes it was worse. I went back to the 97. With the stock cam, I was getting around 40-42 mpg. I could get it up to around 45 if it was all highway miles. When I installed the 585, I lost 3-4 mpg. This wasn't unexpected, but I still wondered if I could do anything about it. I figured I'll try the 98 needle again. I wasn't expecting much because I remember how it was before. The 98 needle was much better. The throttle was more responsive under 25% and fuel mileage improved dramatically. I'm getting at least as good mpg as the stock cam. Sometimes better. We went to the Flight 93 Memorial two years ago. Coming home, I checked my fuel mileage. I got 47 mpg on that trip. I'm not sure why the 585 likes the leaner 98 needle. It's seems counterintuitive. Why would a performance cam want less fuel at lower rpms? I don't know, but I have a theory. Performance cams have much more overlap. That is when both valves are open between the exhaust stroke and intake stroke. At high rpm, a lot of overlap helps get more air and fuel into the cylinders. At low rpm, it actually causes positive pressure in the intake. The piston is moving up when the intake valve opens. This is what causes the well-known "slide rattle" when using a performance cam with a mikuni. The pressure changes in the intake push the slide in and out causing a clicking sound. Overlap also causes the chugging sound at idle that everyone loves. I believe these pressure changes at low rpm cause the mixture to become rich. I believe that's why the 98 needle works better with the 585. Now, the equivalent of changing the needle in an S&S carb is going to a smaller intermediate jet, but it has more duties to perform than the needle does in the mikuni. That may not be feasible. You might just have to live with the loss in fuel mileage, but it is a really nice performance gain.
 

roadie1389

Well-Known Member
Here is my experience with the 585 cam and fuel mileage. Now you have to understand that I have a mikuni. You can taylor the fuel a little more precisely to what the engine wants. You can change the needle to a leaner 98 needle. Stock is 97. Changing the needle only leans the mixture in the 5-25% throttle range. This is where all of your cruising is done. I tried the 98 needle with the stock cam. The bike ran ok, but you could just tell that it was too lean. Throttle response under 25% throttle was sluggish and maintaining speed on a hill required a bigger throttle opening, which uses more fuel. I never got any better fuel mileage with the 98 needle. Sometimes it was worse. I went back to the 97. With the stock cam, I was getting around 40-42 mpg. I could get it up to around 45 if it was all highway miles. When I installed the 585, I lost 3-4 mpg. This wasn't unexpected, but I still wondered if I could do anything about it. I figured I'll try the 98 needle again. I wasn't expecting much because I remember how it was before. The 98 needle was much better. The throttle was more responsive under 25% and fuel mileage improved dramatically. I'm getting at least as good mpg as the stock cam. Sometimes better. We went to the Flight 93 Memorial two years ago. Coming home, I checked my fuel mileage. I got 47 mpg on that trip. I'm not sure why the 585 likes the leaner 98 needle. It's seems counterintuitive. Why would a performance cam want less fuel at lower rpms? I don't know, but I have a theory. Performance cams have much more overlap. That is when both valves are open between the exhaust stroke and intake stroke. At high rpm, a lot of overlap helps get more air and fuel into the cylinders. At low rpm, it actually causes positive pressure in the intake. The piston is moving up when the intake valve opens. This is what causes the well-known "slide rattle" when using a performance cam with a mikuni. The pressure changes in the intake push the slide in and out causing a clicking sound. Overlap also causes the chugging sound at idle that everyone loves. I believe these pressure changes at low rpm cause the mixture to become rich. I believe that's why the 98 needle works better with the 585. Now, the equivalent of changing the needle in an S&S carb is going to a smaller intermediate jet, but it has more duties to perform than the needle does in the mikuni. That may not be feasible. You might just have to live with the loss in fuel mileage, but it is a really nice performance gain.
Yeah, I'm shocked that you guys get that kind of milage out of these bikes. I was getting in the high 30's until I put these LAF pipes on then my milage went to shit. I have no idea why other than I think they lost power and you need more fuel to make up for it. Hell after my Indian stage 2 (I think that cam is a 580, not a Llyods 585) with the bigger throttle body and injectors and a tune, I'm about 36/40 mpg. That is down from the stock 44/48 I was getting. But we all know that the EPA makes them lean these out way too much.

The carb tuning is the one area I'm not an expert in. I don't have the patients or the bucket of parts to swap, test, swap test. I need a Knothead that lives next door.
 

mleach72

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm shocked that you guys get that kind of milage out of these bikes. I was getting in the high 30's until I put these LAF pipes on then my milage went to shit. I have no idea why other than I think they lost power and you need more fuel to make up for it. Hell after my Indian stage 2 (I think that cam is a 580, not a Llyods 585) with the bigger throttle body and injectors and a tune, I'm about 36/40 mpg. That is down from the stock 44/48 I was getting. But we all know that the EPA makes them lean these out way too much.

The carb tuning is the one area I'm not an expert in. I don't have the patients or the bucket of parts to swap, test, swap test. I need a Knothead that lives next door.
Yeah, open pipes cause inconsistent combustion. Maybe I'm just getting older, but I just don't care for the sound of open pipes. A good set of baffled pipes can still sound good and have excellent performance. If I take the baffles out of my softail, it is loud as hell. People tell me they can hear me coming from a couple miles away, but there is no torque when you twist the throttle. I'd rather have the performance than the ear-splitting loudness.
 
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