117 motor, are the pistons .010 over?
- Thread starter Moespeeds
- Start date
Thumper169
Well-Known Member
They are just heping with the wear on the cylinders, you will probably have to file the rings but this is not a bad thing, make sure and hone the cylinders too so the rings will seat properly.
I'd still make sure the piston to wall clearance is within spec. If you need to go with .010 over rings, then you may need to bore the cylinders. Or you could just take your chances with piston slap and a lousy ring seal down the road. It's as simple as a ride down to the machine shop where they have the equipment to take the measurments. If it checks out you may as well have them put a professional hone on the cylinder anyway. That's how I would do it. As much as I like to wrech, I like to ride more.
Moespeeds
Well-Known Member
I'm going to mic the pistons and cylinders tonight, then take a ride up the street where a buddy is going to teach me how to hone them. He has all the equipment I need. I'm probably going to lap the valves too. When he looks at it, he'll tell me what needs to be done. Do I need special tools to get the pistons off?
TheDeadOne
Banned
I agree with Vegas 100%:2thumbs: Moe, Previously you stated that you like to ride it hard and do burnouts and such! Do it so the motor will hold up to what you want to do! :2thumbs:
Thumper169
Well-Known Member
No special tools needed, just a small pic or a small filed down screw driver will work as well, just make sure and cover the top of the cases good as to not drop the clip down inside the motor.
john sachs
Well-Known Member
Your friend is going to teach you how to hone the cylinders :loony: :loony: , don't sound too good to me. Does he have a machine shop, is he going to use a torque plate. When you bore or hone the cylinders you need to use a torque plate. provided you want a good job or you can wing it if you want but it won't be the same. I would go to a machine shop and have the cylinders done by a machinist who know how much to take off. If the cylinders still have the cross hatch pattern in them (which I doubt) you can use a mild stone on the hone assembly to break the glaze (the shinny walls). If the Cross Hatch Pattern is gone, (which I believe it is with 17K) you need to put that cross hatch pattern on there again so that the new rings will seat properly. The reason for a torque plate is that when the cylinders are torqued to specs the measurements of the bore differs from one that is just sitting on the bench, that is why machinist uses a torque plate to make sure the bore is at the same specs as when installed and properly torqued down. Remember piston rings are perfect circles so for a good fit you need perfect cylinders. Every millimeter count (that's what she said :roll: ) if you want to do a good job, have it done properly. I don't mean to bust your bubble or tell you your Friend is wrong, maybe he know something I don't. This is my opinion only, short cuts can bite you in the ASS :bang: I have been there :angry: :bang:
Carlos :2thumbs:
(Def not saying that you're not doing this already 
)
Moespeeds
Well-Known Member
I honed the cylinders myself last night under my buddy Gary's guidance. He has been a Harley and custom mechanic for 30+ years, and has a giant garage in his yard with a machine shop in it. The S&S manual states all this stuff about torque plates and such, but he put things in persepective for me. I could care less how much power the bike makes, I don't even run a proper filter in my V stack, and ran it for a year with no filter at all. My Cylinder walls had some scoring on them, and the valves were pretty ugly. If I don't run a proper pipe or filter then don't waste alot of time trying to get the cylinder walls perfect because they will be dicked up again within 1,000 miles. He told me to change all my seals, do a fast hone and rings because I'm due for that no matter what, and get back to riding. He did make me get the .010 over rings, but told me that if piston slap wasn't a problem before, it won't be now. Here are a few pics of what I did. They are kinda blurry but I was trying to hold everything and take the pics with my phone with greasy hands.
Spring compressor on the valves
My dirty assed valves before cleaning
Cleaning and lapping the valves
The valves are lapped by putting the gritty grease on them and spinning them in the seats with a peice of tubing on the back side
Cleaned and lapped valves
Changing valve seals
Cleaning off the old gaskets
Spring compressor on the valves
My dirty assed valves before cleaning
Cleaning and lapping the valves
The valves are lapped by putting the gritty grease on them and spinning them in the seats with a peice of tubing on the back side
Cleaned and lapped valves
Changing valve seals
Cleaning off the old gaskets
TheDeadOne
Banned
Moe I'm Sorry, I'm not trying to be an A.H., but I hope that I'm misunderstanding or there is a misprint or something here.
You and your buddy that has a machine shop in his garage in his back yard, honed the cylinders "without" torquing down a honing plate, right?
You were told "what's the use because the cylinders would look the same after 1000 miles", right?
And you were told to order +.010 rings, right?
Am I correct so far?
I understand that this is "not" a race motor, but these are "Standard Practices"!
#1- You never, never hone cylinders without installing a "torqued honing plate"! The cylinders need to be honed in as close to the same compressed state that they operate in. Otherwise, the honing is worthless, and the cylinders are not true! Untrue Cylinders can vary in "Diameter", causing the rings to expand and contract with every up and down movement of the piston. Thus, the rings "BREAK"! This is where you started, wasn't it?
#2- The use of the "properly torqued honing plate" also eliminates the possibility of "flaring" the top cylinders. This could, if within the range of ring travel, "BREAK" the rings as well. Not to mention to the small amount of compression loss inclusively.
#3- "1000 miles"! WTF? I'd hope not! Damn, if that were Raywoods bike, 1000 miles would last him a week from what I've seen! :lol: If that's truly the case, a 1000 miles, why didn't you just save $ ,and use "form-a-gasket" to repair (fill) the damaged head gasket without pulling it down?
I bet you could have rode another week or even more! Moe I know I'm just ragging on you here, and busting your chops here as well. But brother you've got a really nice bike. Please don't listen to the wrong people (non-pros) and let someone F*#K IT UP! Repairing it "Fast" is fine! But short cuts to be "Fast" will cost you more $$, and more work in the end! It never fails!
Good Luck Brother :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
I hope I'm misunderstanding something here, I really do.
Last edited:
Moe I'm Sorry, I'm not trying to be an A.H., but I hope that I'm misunderstanding or there is a misprint or something here.
You and your buddy that has a machine shop in his garage in his back yard, honed the cylinders "without" torquing down a honing plate, right?
You were told "what's the use because the cylinders would look the same after 1000 miles", right?
And you were told to order +.010 rings, right?
Am I correct so far?
I understand that this is "not" a race motor, but these are "Standard Practices"!
#1- You never, never hone cylinders without installing a "torqued honing plate"! The cylinders need to be honed in as close to the same compressed state that they operate in. Otherwise, the honing is worthless, and the cylinders are not true! Untrue Cylinders can vary in "Diameter", causing the rings to expand and contract with every up and down movement of the piston. Thus, the rings "BREAK"! This is where you started, wasn't it?
#2- The use of the "properly torqued honing plate" also eliminates the possibility of "flaring" the top cylinders. This could, if within the range of ring travel, "BREAK" the rings as well. Not to mention to the small amount of compression loss inclusively.
#3- "1000 miles"! WTF? I'd hope not! Damn, if that were Raywoods bike, 1000 miles would last him a week from what I've seen! :lol: If that's truly the case, a 1000 miles, why didn't you just save $ ,and use "form-a-gasket" to repair (fill) the damaged head gasket without pulling it down?
Moe I know I'm just ragging on you here, and busting your chops here as well. But brother you've got a really nice bike. Please don't listen to the wrong people (non-pros) and let someone F*#K IT UP! Repairing it "Fast" is fine! But short cuts to be "Fast" will cost you more $$, and more work in the end! It never fails!
Good Luck Brother :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
I hope I'm misunderstanding something here, I really do.
Very Well put, I couldn't agree more. :2thumbs: Moe have you gapped the rings to specs, make sure you use a piston ring cutting wheel. Try to stay on the high side of the specs, to tight might cause rings to break, Cut a little at a time, don't use a file like some idiots do and also make sure there are no burrs left on the ends after you cut the rings. Burrs will put additional scars on your already scared or groves cylinder walls, which will short change you with compression and eventually cause blow by. Good luck hope all works out for you.
Carlos :2thumbs:
Moespeeds
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry I must be using the wrong terminology here. I took a power drill and used a ball hone. Gary told me I was "knocking the glaze off" for the new rings. He said the hone was very soft and I could go at it all day and not change the size of the cylinder. I went back to my other buddy after reading all of this, and basically he told me the same thing. These guys are not hacks, both are well respected mechanics who have great reps and work on some pretty fine stuff. The guy I just spoke to specializes in motor work. I'm in the dark about all of this, I've never had my motor apart like this, but when I've got 2 guys with this much experience telling me what to do, I gotta defer to them. They both are basically telling me that if I'm not going to try to bump compression or increase performance, just get it back together as quickly and cheaply as possible. Btw carlos, I got my gaskets, thank you so much I owe you bigtime!