Oil question, thoughts???

Energy One
BadDawg Bill

BadDawg Bill

Well-Known Member
SMCT said:
Bill, your absolutely right. I just was under the assumption that you might have been talking about the years from 04 to 08. Yes, I know many of friends that have older engines and they seems to have quite a few miles on them.



I am going to lay it all out in that thread I got going in "technical". But here is the short of it:

As mentioned, it is beyond belief that anyone could design something whereas you have two incompatible materials that ride on each other. I am setting up on the bridgeport to swipe .062 of material out of the rocker shaft housing, of which is made out of garbage cast aluminum. The material I am swiping out is going to be replaced by a bronze material wear washer, otherwise known as a "thrust bearing". When you have two incompatible materials that ride on each other, especially when it is in a "load" situation, you need to have either a needle thrust bearing or a bronze thrust bearing. A bronze thrust bearing is actually a washer. I set up on the lathe and made custom thrust bearings (bronze washers). In the industry there are many of offerings, although you have to be careful in the bronze of choice. If the wrong choice is made, it will wear away and not hold up to heat. These bearings that I made are good for 350-500 degrees and can handle a pretty good load. after complete, it will allow the rocker to go through it's lift motions seamlessly without noise and without wearing into the aluminum rocker housing.
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Nice to see someone has some common sense. It's a shame you have to do all this when these engines cost so much. My friend Curley Jim raced Harleys and they sent him engines that had your specs. You would think they would incorporate that in all their engines but then again they wouldn't make as much $$... Going bronze is a good choice because the needle bearings come apart and really screw up the motor.

After buying my dog my heart sunk finding out the engines and trans weren't built by the manufacturers. I only bought it because it had a S&S motor and a Baker trans... I could have built one for about the same with real parts. Little did I know I was scammed. That's why my first posts were so negative... Now I just feel sorry for the guys who have to deal with it and all the electric issues.... They are beautiful bikes but like beautiful women they take a lot of $$ to keep...
 
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Th3InfamousI

Th3InfamousI

Administrator
Staff member
SMCT said:
Bill, your absolutely right. I just was under the assumption that you might have been talking about the years from 04 to 08. Yes, I know many of friends that have older engines and they seems to have quite a few miles on them.



I am going to lay it all out in that thread I got going in "technical". But here is the short of it:

As mentioned, it is beyond belief that anyone could design something whereas you have two incompatible materials that ride on each other. I am setting up on the bridgeport to swipe .062 of material out of the rocker shaft housing, of which is made out of garbage cast aluminum. The material I am swiping out is going to be replaced by a bronze material wear washer, otherwise known as a "thrust bearing". When you have two incompatible materials that ride on each other, especially when it is in a "load" situation, you need to have either a needle thrust bearing or a bronze thrust bearing. A bronze thrust bearing is actually a washer. I set up on the lathe and made custom thrust bearings (bronze washers). In the industry there are many of offerings, although you have to be careful in the bronze of choice. If the wrong choice is made, it will wear away and not hold up to heat. These bearings that I made are good for 350-500 degrees and can handle a pretty good load. after complete, it will allow the rocker to go through it's lift motions seamlessly without noise and without wearing into the aluminum rocker housing.
Click to expand...
You dont have bronze in your original rocker arms?
Does your have rollers or no?

There is a big difference between SS bottom grade arms and their roller rockers. Although both are forged



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SMCT

SMCT

Active Member
You dont have bronze in your original rocker arms?
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Let me clarify it a little better to avoid confusion.

The rocker arm sits in a rocker box, which is made of cast aluminum. The rocker arm it's self does have a bronze sleeve inside of it and that sleeve rides on a hardened shaft, or what should be a hardened shaft. The hardened shaft goes through the cast aluminum rocker box first, then through the rocker arms bronze sleeve, then through the other side of the rocker box. It is where the rocker arms sides run up against the cast aluminum box, which is the culprit of the issue. Hypothetically, even if the rocker arm had zero side load, it still should have a thrust bearing on both sides, but since it loads one side only, due to design, the thrust bearing that I have made, only needs to be inserted on one side of the cast aluminum rocker box. In conclusion, the engine requires 4 thrust bearings. 2 per rocker box. If I was to apply the thrust bearings in both load and non load areas, then 8 would be required.
 
DrRx

DrRx

2007 Bulldog/2009 K-9
SMCT said:
Bill, your absolutely right. I just was under the assumption that you might have been talking about the years from 04 to 08. Yes, I know many of friends that have older engines and they seems to have quite a few miles on them.



I am going to lay it all out in that thread I got going in "technical". But here is the short of it:

As mentioned, it is beyond belief that anyone could design something whereas you have two incompatible materials that ride on each other. I am setting up on the bridgeport to swipe .062 of material out of the rocker shaft housing, of which is made out of garbage cast aluminum. The material I am swiping out is going to be replaced by a bronze material wear washer, otherwise known as a "thrust bearing". When you have two incompatible materials that ride on each other, especially when it is in a "load" situation, you need to have either a needle thrust bearing or a bronze thrust bearing. A bronze thrust bearing is actually a washer. I set up on the lathe and made custom thrust bearings (bronze washers). In the industry there are many of offerings, although you have to be careful in the bronze of choice. If the wrong choice is made, it will wear away and not hold up to heat. These bearings that I made are good for 350-500 degrees and can handle a pretty good load. after complete, it will allow the rocker to go through it's lift motions seamlessly without noise and without wearing into the aluminum rocker housing.
Click to expand...
So will make these so that they are avail to owners here in the forum?


DrRx- "DOC"
2007 bulldog/2009 K-9
 
Th3InfamousI

Th3InfamousI

Administrator
Staff member
SMCT said:
Let me clarify it a little better to avoid confusion.

The rocker arm sits in a rocker box, which is made of cast aluminum. The rocker arm it's self does have a bronze sleeve inside of it and that sleeve rides on a hardened shaft, or what should be a hardened shaft. The hardened shaft goes through the cast aluminum rocker box first, then through the rocker arms bronze sleeve, then through the other side of the rocker box. It is where the rocker arms sides run up against the cast aluminum box, which is the culprit of the issue. Hypothetically, even if the rocker arm had zero side load, it still should have a thrust bearing on both sides, but since it loads one side only, due to design, the thrust bearing that I have made, only needs to be inserted on one side of the cast aluminum rocker box. In conclusion, the engine requires 4 thrust bearings. 2 per rocker box. If I was to apply the thrust bearings in both load and non load areas, then 8 would be required.
Click to expand...
Okay I understand what your talking about now.

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SMCT

SMCT

Active Member
So will make these so that they are avail to owners here in the forum?
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It would only make sense to help those who have the same Big Dog S&S engines, which would be just about all of us here. The kit would include 4 thrust bearings and instructions with an illustration on where to remove the material from the rocker box stand. Any machine shop can preform this modification to the rocker box stands once they have the thrust bearings in hand with the instructions. I will upload a video onto youtube which will significantly help.
 
chubs

chubs

Guru
SMCT said:
It would only make sense to help those who have the same Big Dog S&S engines, which would be just about all of us here. The kit would include 4 thrust bearings and instructions with an illustration on where to remove the material from the rocker box stand. Any machine shop can preform this modification to the rocker box stands once they have the thrust bearings in hand with the instructions. I will upload a video onto youtube which will significantly help.
Click to expand...
:old2::old2::cheers::cheers::old2::old2:
 
TapioK

TapioK

Well-Known Member
SMCT said:
Let me clarify it a little better to avoid confusion.

The rocker arm sits in a rocker box, which is made of cast aluminum. The rocker arm it's self does have a bronze sleeve inside of it and that sleeve rides on a hardened shaft, or what should be a hardened shaft. The hardened shaft goes through the cast aluminum rocker box first, then through the rocker arms bronze sleeve, then through the other side of the rocker box. It is where the rocker arms sides run up against the cast aluminum box, which is the culprit of the issue. Hypothetically, even if the rocker arm had zero side load, it still should have a thrust bearing on both sides, but since it loads one side only, due to design, the thrust bearing that I have made, only needs to be inserted on one side of the cast aluminum rocker box. In conclusion, the engine requires 4 thrust bearings. 2 per rocker box. If I was to apply the thrust bearings in both load and non load areas, then 8 would be required.
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Is the arm noticeably eating itself in to the aluminium?
 
TapioK

TapioK

Well-Known Member
SMCT said:
Like a fat kid who has been starved for weeks on end, and my engine has about 6800 miles on it.



I said "rocker box" not "rock her box"
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Was looking Twin Cam rockerbox and arms two weeks ago, don't remember them having anything between arm and box either. In fact I don't remember noticing any marks on box though the bike had about 80.ooo miles! Maybe I didn't pay attention, but my mechanic friends didn't say anything about that either... We had 3 engines open in our garage...

Like this! For knucklehead
 
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SMCT

SMCT

Active Member
The damage and wear can only be seen if you slide the shaft out and remove the rocker arm from the cast aluminum rocker box housing.
 
TapioK

TapioK

Well-Known Member
SMCT said:
The damage and wear can only be seen if you slide the shaft out and remove the rocker arm from the cast aluminum rocker box housing.
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Had those in pieces at least on one bike, we replaced those bushings inside arms


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Th3InfamousI

Th3InfamousI

Administrator
Staff member
TapioK said:
Had those in pieces at least on one bike, we replaced those bushings inside arms


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I think I'm going to put new bushings and just install new shafts this summer on my k9. Hopefully quite it down some. Shafts are cheap only about $35 for the set of 4 rather just replace them along with bushings to ensure proper tolerance.

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TapioK

TapioK

Well-Known Member
Th3InfamousI said:
I think I'm going to put new bushings and just install new shafts this summer on my k9. Hopefully quite it down some. Shafts are cheap only about $35 for the set of 4 rather just replace them along with bushings to ensure proper tolerance.

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Click to expand...
Don't recall if we had new shafts too at least I don't remember buying those for him hmmm.


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