TP Performance Rocker Boxes

[Raywood]

For all the motor heads here.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about how problematic the TP rocker boxes are. Some of that discussion pertains to valve & guide alignment. Valve guide wear has been an issue and even on my motor I had a badly worn rear exhaust guide that was venting exhaust into the rocker box but only on one of the four. Pic here:

Most issues with the TP rockers has been valve guide wear.

Here is what I don't understand:

How is the valves and guides mis-aligned by the TP rockers when the heads are S&S and the angle of the guides is set by S&S machining?

If the rockers have rollers then how can that have any relation to putting any excess "angle" pressure on the valve stem? Isn't that the reason for using rollers so that they don't put any undue angular pressure on the valve?

 

[BikersDream]

When you align the rocker on the top of valve the rockers are pushing the valve out before it descends down. Their for wearing out the valve guide prematurely.

 

[Vegas]

In a car engine build the length of the pushrod effects where the rocker tip contacts the valve stem. The only thing I can think of is when the lifters and pushrods were adjusted the rock arm was not centered on the valve stem. With this style of rocker arm it would've been improper design of the rocker box itself since pushrod lengths can't really be adjusted to change valve stem contact. This is purely speculation since I've never had a TP box apart.

 

[McLovin]

When you align the rocker on the top of valve the rockers are pushing the valve out before it descends down. Their for wearing out the valve guide prematurely.

It must be WAY off center then...

 

[narow37]

I never really understood that either Ray, just glad that I have the S&S rockers.

 

[bigdogtech01]

IT is NOT the TP rocker arms or boxes. It is the comp cam springs they put into them. The spring pressure and the harmonics on how it moves in it's downward force causes the valve to push off to one side of the guide more than the other, therefor causing the guide to wear out. You can replace you comp springs with a set of S&S and run the TP rocker arms and have no problems after that, just as long as you do this before you put many miles on it, probably less than 1000. I am sure most of you have more than that so you would be better off replacing your guides, valves, and springs.
Not a bad upgrade to go with all S&S if you can afford it.

 

[Gas Man]

IT is NOT the TP rocker arms or boxes. It is the comp cam springs they put into them. The spring pressure and the harmonics on how it moves in it's downward force causes the valve to push off to one side of the guide more than the other, therefor causing the guide to wear out. You can replace you comp springs with a set of S&S and run the TP rocker arms and have no problems after that, just as long as you do this before you put many miles on it, probably less than 1000. I am sure most of you have more than that so you would be better off replacing your guides, valves, and springs.
Not a bad upgrade to go with all S&S if you can afford it.

That is the first time I have heard that pov.

 

[Raywood]

IT is NOT the TP rocker arms or boxes. It is the comp cam springs they put into them. The spring pressure and the harmonics on how it moves in it's downward force causes the valve to push off to one side of the guide more than the other, therefor causing the guide to wear out. You can replace you comp springs with a set of S&S and run the TP rocker arms and have no problems after that, just as long as you do this before you put many miles on it, probably less than 1000. I am sure most of you have more than that so you would be better off replacing your guides, valves, and springs.
Not a bad upgrade to go with all S&S if you can afford it.

If that is so then I should be good to go now that I replaced my 05 with 06 heads that have the S&S red stipe springs you think?

Thanks for the info.

 

[bigdogtech01]

If that is so then I should be good to go now that I replaced my 05 with 06 heads that have the S&S red stipe springs you think?

Thanks for the info.

Yes, as long as the heads have been reworked with all new valves and valve guides and seats if needed.

 

[shovelcowboy]

For all the motor heads here.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about how problematic the TP rocker boxes are. Some of that discussion pertains to valve & guide alignment. Valve guide wear has been an issue and even on my motor I had a badly worn rear exhaust guide that was venting exhaust into the rocker box but only on one of the four. Pic here:


QUOTE]

Ray, tell us again how many miles you had on that motor (when you had to tear it down for a "rattle in the engine"! :bang Sorry Man, the devil made me do it.:roll:

Anyway, I was just wondering if you thought the rear guide was or would have soon been a problem? How many more miles you think you would have gotten out of her.? And if you think it was a mistake for BDM to use these instead of S&S (which I guess it would be if the old 107's never had a guide problem or did they)?

Shovelcowboy

 

[Raywood]

Ray, tell us again how many miles you had on that motor (when you had to tear it down for a "rattle in the engine"! :bang Sorry Man, the devil made me do it.:roll:

Anyway, I was just wondering if you thought the rear guide was or would have soon been a problem?

How many more miles you think you would have gotten out of her.? And if you think it was a mistake for BDM to use these instead of S&S (which I guess it would be if the old 107's never had a guide problem or did they)?



Shovelcowboy

I had just over 65,000 miles on it so not bad considering others that had problems right away.


I'm sure it would have. My gas mileage was down to less than 33 mpg so I knew there was something wrong plus she was starting to smoke a little.


I'm sure it would have gone much further albeit the issues I stated above. As for a mistake on BDM's part, I don't know. I do know they replaced a lot of them and heard they denied replacing some!
These were only used on 05's and early 06's.

 

[BikersDream]

Schooling

IT is NOT the TP rocker arms or boxes. It is the comp cam springs they put into them. The spring pressure and the harmonics on how it moves in it's downward force causes the valve to push off to one side of the guide more than the other, therefor causing the guide to wear out. You can replace you comp springs with a set of S&S and run the TP rocker arms and have no problems after that, just as long as you do this before you put many miles on it, probably less than 1000. I am sure most of you have more than that so you would be better off replacing your guides, valves, and springs.
Not a bad upgrade to go with all S&S if you can afford it.

Have you ever talked to S&S about the TP issue? With this post I guess not.

 

[Vegas]

I find it hard to believe that comp cams couldn't put together a proper spring and cam combo. They are the most decorated cam manufacturer in the USA. I still think it was geometry.

 

[BikersDream]

Class listen up! Dead has spoken!

 

[bigdogtech01]

Have you ever talked to S&S about the TP issue? With this post I guess not.

S&S will not talk much about this issue because it is not 100% their motor, they claim any and all responsibility for it.

 

[bigdogtech01]

That's right Dream, you tell 'em! :2thumbs::2thumbs::2thumbs:






I agree with the part about upgrading to the S&S if possible.
I'm sorry, but the rest of your explanation is very, very incorrect! :down::down:
I'm sorry, but valve spring seat pressure, unless totally "null" have "VERY LITTLE to almost NOTHING" to do with valve guide wear.



I've raced, won national championships and built my own motors in the professional ranks of dragboat racing in Pro Gas (Pro Stock), Pro Modified, and Blown Alcohol Hydros for over twenty years. I learned from some of the worlds best motor builders how to correctly build "race" motors. But, Who am I? and What do I know? :loony:...:lol:

Vegas is very close on his explanation of how the actual set up is done. :2thumbs:
The only difference I will add is that the push rod length is determined by the needed push in the rocker arms geometric pivoting action to be as closely centered as possible in the total depth motion induced on the valve by the lift in the cam. This can all be adjusted by push rod length, the addition of lash caps or in rocker arm ratio differences "if available"!

But the problem I see with the TP rocker boxes. Is that the rocker positioning is slightly off from where it should be. Causing the rocker arm to be mis aligned with the valve stem, and putting undue lateral force on the valve during it's travel range of motion. Thus causing the premature wear in the valve guides. Someone that has all the proper equipment and knowledge on how to perform the adjustments, and depending on the fastening of the rocker boxes themselves. This can be adjusted out to the correct position, "SOMETIMES"! But "NOT" always!

But, just my opinion here! But, Who am I? and What do I know? :loony:...:lol:

dead

Well I guess everything they told us at Bigdog was false statements then huh? They have just as much knowledge of more than S&S does along with 100's of hours of testing and R&R. So how many boats did you run with an S&S motor Just messin with ya:up:

 

[Raywood]

S&S will not talk much about this issue because it is not 100% their motor, they claim any and all responsibility for it.

I can vouch for this. When I was doing my top-end I called them about the heads and they only would tell me to call BDM. I can understand this as BDM build the motors back then like some other companies do or did.

 

[john sachs]

I do a ton of heads each year,yes,a lot of S&S heads as well.
I need someone to explain to me how Comp.Cams valve springs cause the guide wear we see on the TP/S&S combos.
FWIW,I use a lot of Comp.Cams springs,beehives included,as do a lot of head porters,and have never experienced the "guide problem" with correct geometry.:up:
Funny thing,when I rebuild these problem heads using S&S rockers,and boxes,along with Comp.Cams springs,the problems go away............
John

 

[T.Byrd]

John I didn't think you could put s&s boxes on these heads they have different bolt patterns.

 

[john sachs]

John I didn't think you could put s&s boxes on these heads they have different bolt patterns.

S&S designed their rocker boxes to go with their engines and HEADS.That being said,they are also compatible with SOME other engines as well.It all boils down to geometry.
I've seen "cookie cutter" chopper companies that used an another brand engine,several years back,that had major head gasket issues.........Why ? The head bolt holes weren't spot faced square to the hole. :angry:I fixed a lot of those under warranty.
John