Top End Rebuild on 2006 117 (got tips/suggestions?)

[BWG56]

I looked at Steve's how to and I wanted to do this back in 11im still on the fence and Dale just did her nails so that's out

That's around the time I did mine
put it on lift
pull the plugs
remove pipes if there in the way
pop push rod covers
loosen push rods
pull cam cover
remove cam and compare measurement to old one
whip some grease on lobes
install new cam
install cam cover
adjust push rods
install pipes
install plugs
fire it up and go change your shorts
see how easy it is

 

[SMCT]

I would bypass on the grease on the cam lobes. It's a roller cam which a hardened wheel rides on. Oil will be just fine. We don't use any sort of special assembly lube when building in the engine shop, just the oil it runs on and moly on cam lobes if it is a hydraulic tapet or mechanica tapet. For those getting into it further, rings go in dry and one small drop on each side of the pistons skirt. Cylinders are dry as well. This is the best way to seal a ring package. Oil on the rings will prolong it from sealing and you highly run the risk of glazing the ring package over to where it will never seal.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

I would bypass on the grease on the cam lobes. It's a roller cam which a hardened wheel rides on. Oil will be just fine. We don't use any sort of special assembly lube when building in the engine shop, just the oil it runs on and moly on cam lobes if it is a hydraulic tapet or mechanica tapet. For those getting into it further, rings go in dry and one small drop on each side of the pistons skirt. Cylinders are dry as well. This is the best way to seal a ring package. Oil on the rings will prolong it from sealing and you highly run the risk of glazing the ring package over to where it will never seal.

Interesting just watched a S&S video of installing their pistons and jugs on a stock Harley they recommended assembly lube on the piston and rings prior to dropping the jug on

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[SMCT]

When you dis-assemble a well sealed engine, your not going to find oil all over the compression ring or the scraper ring, which is your second ring, and a little at best on the oil ring. You wouldn't take a spark plug out and squirt oil into the chamber prior to starting it, so why would anyone slather up oil all over the bores and rings during assembly? One very little drop on both sides of the skirt is all you need.

 

[SMCT]

.........and now it all makes sense! Just finished taking the last piece of the puzzle apart in an effort to figure out why this engine is doggy and why it seems like it can't shear fuel/lazy. As mentioned I have cc'd the cylinder head and I plan to cc the second cylinder head as well, and looking a little closer at the valve reliefs in the piston, it pretty much is closer to .750 of a cc x 2 which is 1.5 cc's and when you take into consideration the top ring and where it starts on the piston, that area is most likely 0.5 yielding this engine exactly 9.6, just what the factory indicates. It has a 600 cam, and that coupled with low compression will make it a bomb for power, throttle response and torque output. This was my hunch.

 

[SMCT]

They also say it needs to be H-D oil, so every other oil is out....lol.
Paul, I can't begin to tell you how there is so many tech articles that just have poor advice, regardless of how large a company is. There are massive amount of "how to build" books offered into the industry that are filled with bad advice. There are book writers and then there are those who build day in and day out, and those are the ones that don't share their knowledge in a published book. There are many of company's that can pour mega bucks into marketing, and even if their product is inferior to junk, it will sell just because of the exposure through financial investment. Then they take that money earned and sponsor someone that is fast and famous, although you'll come to find out, that the fast and famous do not use their sponsors products in the majority of cases. Even oil is poured out of it's factory containers and a different manufactures oil goes in. then it gets loaded into the race car hauler. This way when the fans are standing around in the pits, they are being exposed visually to something that is not a true representation of what it actually is.

 

[SMCT]

Today I removed the cylinders and took the rings off the pistons and the pistons off the connecting rods. I figured it would be easiest to clean them when off. One of the pictures shows the oil rails almost lined up, and that's no good. Both pistons the same, oil rails almost lined up. Oil rails rarely ever move, top rings are another story when the engine is not happy. So who ever installed the rails from the Big Dog factory or S&S did this procedure incorrectly. I set up my AG300 gage which measures piston wrist pin i.d.'s, rod small end i.d.'s and rod big end i.d.'s along with other housing i.d's as well. By the feel of these wrist pins I had a hunch that they where tight and when I put the pistons on my gauge, the pin boss measured .0003 for wrist pin to piston housing bore for clearance. The pin is exactly .9270 and the bore was .9273. That's absurdly tight and the wrist pin bore in the piston showed it as well. I honed both pistons and set them at .0008, and that is very tight still but I will leave it at that since it is an air cooled engine and that piston might take on more heat than a water cooled engine. We typically set up these clearances at .0014-.0018. If that pin bore didn't show signs of being tight, I would have left it alone. It had the same look as what we see in the shop when pistons are set up at .0007-.0008. I set up and micro polished the wrist pins as well. I re-installed the wire lock into one side of each piston. I have a paper clip bent into shape that fits into the wire lock groove on one side while I install the wire lock on the other. This home made gadget works well and I use it all the time in the shop. The piston skirt measured in the correct location measures 4.1225. Making the assumption that the bore is 4.1250, that would be .0025 for clearance. I'm pretty impressed with how the skirts look and the coatings definitely make a difference as they shed foreign material rather than trap it, hold it in the skirt and scrap the wall. I'll check the cylinder bore when I set up to hone these cylinders.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Today I removed the cylinders and took the rings off the pistons and the pistons off the connecting rods. I figured it would be easiest to clean them when off. One of the pictures shows the oil rails almost lined up, and that's no good. Both pistons the same, oil rails almost lined up. Oil rails rarely ever move, top rings are another story when the engine is not happy. So who ever installed the rails from the Big Dog factory or S&S did this procedure incorrectly. I set up my AG300 gage which measures piston wrist pin i.d.'s, rod small end i.d.'s and rod big end i.d.'s along with other housing i.d's as well. By the feel of these wrist pins I had a hunch that they where tight and when I put the pistons on my gauge, the pin boss measured .0003 for wrist pin to piston housing bore for clearance. The pin is exactly .9270 and the bore was .9273. That's absurdly tight and the wrist pin bore in the piston showed it as well. I honed both pistons and set them at .0008, and that is very tight still but I will leave it at that since it is an air cooled engine and that piston might take on more heat than a water cooled engine. We typically set up these clearances at .0014-.0018. If that pin bore didn't show signs of being tight, I would have left it alone. It had the same look as what we see in the shop when pistons are set up at .0007-.0008. I set up and micro polished the wrist pins as well. I re-installed the wire lock into one side of each piston. I have a paper clip bent into shape that fits into the wire lock groove on one side while I install the wire lock on the other. This home made gadget works well and I use it all the time in the shop. The piston skirt measured in the correct location measures 4.1225. Making the assumption that the bore is 4.1250, that would be .0025 for clearance. I'm pretty impressed with how the skirts look and the coatings definitely make a difference as they shed foreign material rather than trap it, hold it in the skirt and scrap the wall. I'll check the cylinder bore when I set up to hone these cylinders. View attachment 38908 View attachment 38909 View attachment 38910 View attachment 38911 View attachment 38912 View attachment 38913 View attachment 38914

Damn andy what you use to clean the piston? It looks brand new!

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[Big Daddy 72]

I can tell you in the many many sbc and bbc motors I've built over the years that very very little oil on cylinder walls is an industry standard for a high performance application. The best thing you can do for a cylinder wall is clean it very thoroughly prior to assembly most don't get them clean enough and this is what causes damage. I've seen motors with a few passes that the pistons looked horrible due to lack of cleaning. When I assemble anything I clean with white lint free towel until there is no discoloration. I just finished a 496 bbc and the pistons were installed the same way scmt described.

 

[cdogg556]

Today I removed the cylinders and took the rings off the pistons and the pistons off the connecting rods. I figured it would be easiest to clean them when off. One of the pictures shows the oil rails almost lined up, and that's no good. Both pistons the same, oil rails almost lined up. Oil rails rarely ever move, top rings are another story when the engine is not happy. So who ever installed the rails from the Big Dog factory or S&S did this procedure incorrectly. I set up my AG300 gage which measures piston wrist pin i.d.'s, rod small end i.d.'s and rod big end i.d.'s along with other housing i.d's as well. By the feel of these wrist pins I had a hunch that they where tight and when I put the pistons on my gauge, the pin boss measured .0003 for wrist pin to piston housing bore for clearance. The pin is exactly .9270 and the bore was .9273. That's absurdly tight and the wrist pin bore in the piston showed it as well. I honed both pistons and set them at .0008, and that is very tight still but I will leave it at that since it is an air cooled engine and that piston might take on more heat than a water cooled engine. We typically set up these clearances at .0014-.0018. If that pin bore didn't show signs of being tight, I would have left it alone. It had the same look as what we see in the shop when pistons are set up at .0007-.0008. I set up and micro polished the wrist pins as well. I re-installed the wire lock into one side of each piston. I have a paper clip bent into shape that fits into the wire lock groove on one side while I install the wire lock on the other. This home made gadget works well and I use it all the time in the shop. The piston skirt measured in the correct location measures 4.1225. Making the assumption that the bore is 4.1250, that would be .0025 for clearance. I'm pretty impressed with how the skirts look and the coatings definitely make a difference as they shed foreign material rather than trap it, hold it in the skirt and scrap the wall. I'll check the cylinder bore when I set up to hone these cylinders. View attachment 38908 View attachment 38909 View attachment 38910 View attachment 38911 View attachment 38912 View attachment 38913 View attachment 38914

Holy shit it must be nice to have all the right tools to do work like that! Obviously you are a professional, awesome work Andy!

 

[SMCT]

The best detergent for cleaning, especially after honing the bores, is transmission fluid. Squirt it onto a paper towel that has been folded up into a quarter of it's size (fold it in half, then fold that in half). Squirt maybe a 2 inch circle of trans fluid onto that paper towel and wipe the cylinder clean until there is no grey on that paper towel. Keep turning the paper towel and refolding it. Never brake clean and never lacquer thinner, since both of them will dry the dirt right back in the cross hatches. After that process is complete, then with an old clean t-shirt, which is lint free as described, dry as much of that trans fluid out and now your ready to install your pistons with rings.

 

[SMCT]

Today I extracted the dowls out of the jugs and I am in the process of making a lathe fixture to take .054 off the bottom of the base. With the new base gasket, this will net out a zero deck (piston zero .000 in relationship to the deck surface).

Here is a simple McGiver tool to extract the dowls.....lol. I taped the dowl i.d. 3/8th first, then set a washer/spacer that has an i.d. larger than that of the dowl, one socket, one bolt and drew it up.

 

[john sachs]

Today I removed the cylinders and took the rings off the pistons and the pistons off the connecting rods. I figured it would be easiest to clean them when off. One of the pictures shows the oil rails almost lined up, and that's no good. Both pistons the same, oil rails almost lined up. Oil rails rarely ever move, top rings are another story when the engine is not happy. So who ever installed the rails from the Big Dog factory or S&S did this procedure incorrectly. I set up my AG300 gage which measures piston wrist pin i.d.'s, rod small end i.d.'s and rod big end i.d.'s along with other housing i.d's as well. By the feel of these wrist pins I had a hunch that they where tight and when I put the pistons on my gauge, the pin boss measured .0003 for wrist pin to piston housing bore for clearance. The pin is exactly .9270 and the bore was .9273. That's absurdly tight and the wrist pin bore in the piston showed it as well. I honed both pistons and set them at .0008, and that is very tight still but I will leave it at that since it is an air cooled engine and that piston might take on more heat than a water cooled engine. We typically set up these clearances at .0014-.0018. If that pin bore didn't show signs of being tight, I would have left it alone. It had the same look as what we see in the shop when pistons are set up at .0007-.0008. I set up and micro polished the wrist pins as well. I re-installed the wire lock into one side of each piston. I have a paper clip bent into shape that fits into the wire lock groove on one side while I install the wire lock on the other. This home made gadget works well and I use it all the time in the shop. The piston skirt measured in the correct location measures 4.1225. Making the assumption that the bore is 4.1250, that would be .0025 for clearance. I'm pretty impressed with how the skirts look and the coatings definitely make a difference as they shed foreign material rather than trap it, hold it in the skirt and scrap the wall. I'll check the cylinder bore when I set up to hone these cylinders. View attachment 38908 View attachment 38909 View attachment 38910 View attachment 38911 View attachment 38912 View attachment 38913 View attachment 38914

RINGS ROTATE on pistons, including the oil rings. I take apart a lot of engines, both new, and with miles, and find rings lined up from time to time.
The main cause in a healthy engine is the radial action the cross-hatch causes.
There are other reasons also, but they fall into problem areas.
2 stroke engines, or engines with ports in the cylinder walls have pins in the ring grooves to eliminate the rotation.(ring gap can get caught in the port)
John

 

[SMCT]

RINGS ROTATE on pistons, including the oil rings.

Then I would consider myself lucky, because over the last 33 years of engine building, I have only experienced one engine whereas it had it's ring gaps lined up on one cylinder and had made mention to him in the past about his detonation issues, about his fuel and type of fuel issues. We build performance engines for race teams, street/strip and high end restoration muscle car builds. We operate a fully equipped machine shop with cnc and edm capabilities as well. Many of our engines in competition come back in for freshen ups as well as improvements as technology advancements are available. I do not do two stroke engines so I couldn't elaborate on ring movement. I am in the process of cnc'ing a fixture for these S&S cylinders, including a deck plate as well, to work with my CV616 sunnen honing machine. I will keep anyone who is interested in my rebuild, posted here in this topic. Thanks.

 

[SMCT]

Cutting the S&S 117 cylinders base .052

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Cutting the S&S 117 cylinders base .052

View attachment 39053

Thanks for sharing! Looks like fun

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[SMCT]

Finished up with my fixtures for my Sunnen CV 616 honing machine. Here is the base fixture shown and the deck plate. The deck plate will allow the cylinder, when honing, to experience the same stress or load, as if the cylinder head was actually on it. This will allow for the straightest and most concentric cylinder during the honing process. We use deck plates all the time when honing engine blocks in the shop. It's the only way to get accuracy and good ring seal from a round bore. With these fixtures, now I am able to bore and hone these S&S cylinders. If you, or anyone you know needs cylinders honed, decked or bored, just drop me a message. I'd be more than happy to help the community out.

 

[cdogg556]

You are obviously a professional Andy! Very nice work brutha, can't wait to see it when it's all done and back in the bike!

 

[SMCT]

Finished honing the two cylinders and they where actually straighter than I expected. The factory had them sitting at 4.1263-4.1266 and with the piston measuring 4.1225, that leaves it with .0040 piston to wall clearance, which appears to have been fine based upon the looks of the pistons skirts. So the object at this point was to make them straight and round, not that they where really out of round, but during the process of breaking that glaze for the new rings and setting in the correct cross hatch, might as well straighten them as best as I can. So I pulled about .0015 out and got them real nice and straight, and with the correct finish and cross hatch pattern. So far i'm pleased with the progress.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Finished honing the two cylinders and they where actually straighter than I expected. The factory had them sitting at 4.1263-4.1266 and with the piston measuring 4.1225, that leaves it with .0040 piston to wall clearance, which appears to have been fine based upon the looks of the pistons skirts. So the object at this point was to make them straight and round, not that they where really out of round, but during the process of breaking that glaze for the new rings and setting in the correct cross hatch, might as well straighten them as best as I can. So I pulled about .0015 out and got them real nice and straight, and with the correct finish and cross hatch pattern. So far i'm pleased with the progress.View attachment 39409 View attachment 39410 View attachment 39411 View attachment 39412 View attachment 39413

So just curious here why wouldn't they be straight from the factory? I would think it be damn near spot on?

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