Tappets

[alhall88]

thanks Al - so assuming my bike will not have the travel limiters, do these bikes have the hydraulic lifters so that all I need is the travel limiter kit? It is obviously the lifters (are lifters and tappets the same thing?) which is the expensive bit.

This is all very confusing to me!!!

Yes lee I know some may argue the point, but either one will accomplish the same effect. The lifter is a hydraulic lifter that if you install the limiter kit (which is nothing more than precision washers) will shorten the travel by about 50%. The other method as you say is to purchase the complete lifter kit with travel limiters already installed which are expensive. Save yourself some money and buy just the limiter kit without replacing the complete lifter IMO.

 

[lee]

Save yourself some money and buy just the limiter kit without replacing the complete lifter IMO.

damn it Al - I just had my mind made up too :lol:

 

[117bigdog]

whats limiters and are they a performance mod?

 

[MARV]

I'll put my 2 cents in here. The stock configuration 117 S&S would have come with travel limiters in the lifters due to the cam that should have been in there. However big dog did not use them with the low lift epa cam. Even my 04 117 did not have travel limiters lifters. You can use the actual travel limiter lifters or use the washers that S&S also has that do the same thing pretty much. The stock lifter travel has about .100 travel in it. The point you need to be around is .050 to .065 if your around the .640 -.650 lift IMO. My builder didn't think I was right until he adjusted the pushrods and had to pull it back apart and put the correct lifters in.

must be the familiar name that gets the benefit of doubt.

Al, i'm thinking the stock tappet/lifter is .200 of travel and the limiter washer is .100 thick.

the piston i referred to was the piston inside the tappet.

got a set in hand here and they dont have the limiters. need a pic?

Lee, if your stock tappets are the same that mine where it sounds here the kit might not fit.

"33-5342 tappets are suitable for virtually all
applications without S&S Hydraulic Lifter Limited
Travel Kit recommended with previous lifters. If
customer elects to install HL2T kit, PN 33-5338
designed for 1984-’85 Harley-Davidson® Evolution®
engine tappets must be used."

http://www.sscycle.com/modules/instruction/uploads/51-1040.pdf

 

[Thumper]

Finally a real fucking thread to follow. Great info guys.

 

[alhall88]

must be the familiar name that gets the benefit of doubt.

Al, i'm thinking the stock tappet/lifter is .200 of travel and the limiter washer is .100 thick.

the piston i referred to was the piston inside the tappet.

got a set in hand here and they dont have the limiters. need a pic?

Lee, if your stock tappets are the same that mine where it sounds here the kit might not fit.

"33-5342 tappets are suitable for virtually all
applications without S&S Hydraulic Lifter Limited
Travel Kit recommended with previous lifters. If
customer elects to install HL2T kit, PN 33-5338
designed for 1984-’85 Harley-Davidson® Evolution®
engine tappets must be used."

http://www.sscycle.com/modules/instruction/uploads/51-1040.pdf

Marv, your probably correct I'm just looking at a bunch of readings I took off the pushrods themselves with my calipers before and after the limiter install. The numbers your stating are probably direct off the lifter itself. So lets just say the limiter kit will reduce the travel by half of its original state:up:

 

[MARV]

Marv,

Just know that I adjusted mine per S&S pretty much as per the posted tech paper. Have had no problems and about the only difference is that I tighten it down to 4 turns after bottom out the tavel limiter at TDC, then after waiting, if still tight, back off to zero lash and then 1/2 turn. If not tighten another turn, wait and go from there.

Tim,

so if you dont have the hlt2 kit then your basically running a solid lifter with that adjustment.

when i did my build i investigated this pretty hard. no limiters in newer BD's.

if i'm wrong you can drink my black bushmills, smoke my cohiba, pamper my dogs, and comment how dirty my bike is with no recourse from me! :2thumbs:

 

[Fibersnake]

Marv,

Hell thanks for the offer, but regardless if mine have the limiters or not, I will still gladly drink the Bush Black, smoke the Cohiba but will not comment on how dirty the bike is for it means you are enjoying riding it more than cleaning it. Also they offer stands if your come my way also regardless of limiters or not.

Also all the info is good and I am sure it is very much appreciated by many. Would be nice if we got some inptu from the facotry though. The way ours are built, no one is every sure of what is in them since they tended to change around things a bit even in the same years, especially the 05.

Helll even when they did some repairs such as the valve guide, some were inidicating that they got non roller rockers and standard springs, where I know (for I have seen it with the eye) mine got all S&S rollers with the orange stripe springs and proper retainers yet they kept the TP Rocker Boxes-go figure (BTW still no issue with my orginal TP boxes).

Not that I am expecting to pull mine apart any time soon, but if I do, Iwll make sure I take the lifter apart and see if it does or doesn't. Just out of curiosity the ones that you have for a pic are they out of a an 05 and has it been taken apart?

Now on the use of adjusting by how I am doing (similar to the S&S Posted) when I bottom out by going 4 turn or so, waiting 10 min and if still tight, then I back off till I have zero lash (can just twist the rod). At this point I should have compressed the piston in the lifter, allowed it to bleed and then loosen to zero lash assuring that I have a closed valve. If I take 1/2 turn per say and the push rods are the standard 32 TPI S&S, in theory I have approx 0.0156" of slack between the limiter and the piston on the low side, with a full turn it is 0.032", much as you indicate similar to a solid lift.

Keep in mind with the HL2T, it is very similar to a solid lift and purpose ot to prevent from colapsing. Now I am not positive that mine has the HL2T in them, but I have asked my delaer numerous times previous and checked with him today, and he indicates to the best of his knowledge that I do. If I do not, yes I am pushing most of the adjsutment range out of the tappet, which is making it some what like a limti of travel but not as designed. Should not be an issue but would be great to know for sure.

About the only way I will know for sure is to take it apart of go get my trusty dial inidicator and put it on TDC and start taking the slack out while allowing for time for bleed down and try to get a total measurement of movement and see if it allowing for the normal non TL or showing that it has one.

Never hurts to go play and once I do, I will let you know my results. Thanks for the info and the offer of Bush Black, but don't let this discussion change the fact that I will always share good Irish cheer regardless of what we have or do.

 

[MARV]

this must be good cause your making me (try) to think!

so "if" you have the standard lifters you are running with approx .032 of compressionable travel.

and with the limiters, 1 turn loose from bottom is the same .032 of travel.

so what is the engineering purpose of the limiter?

doubt its the amount of thread on the rod cause it has about an inch + of thread.

must have something to do with the amount of oil left in the body of the standard tappet?

 

[Fibersnake]

Marv,

Sorry about that and and hell now I am thinking (not good). That said with a standard lifter (assuming no limiters) with about .200" of total travel for the piston to take out slack, if one has a lifter that at it's limits and not totaly bottom out, when one set the lifter to TDC and then takes 3-4 turns, this put the piston at about 0.09375" to 0.125" into the .200" of play available, or about mid point. Since there is no limiter take up the remaining, one should have from just over 0.100" to 0.075" lift for compensation.

With the limiter since it is occuping some of the space and setting adjustment as per the S&S info, what is happening is that one is taking the piston, insuring it is it limiteds and then allowing for the much smaller compensation then without limiter.

After getting home and reading the BDM 05 manual, it speaks of getting to TDC and zero lash and then taking 4 turns, letting it bleed down before rotating and after such it should be able to be turn with slight drag. When I have done mine I have pretty much done the same thing except it seems that mine never get loose again (may be going more than 4 turns) and then when I back off to zero lash after allowing for bleed down (keeping in mind it was still tight and not able to run push rod until I back off to get a slight drag), I then take another 1/2 to 1 turn looser. It would seem that this put the tappet piston travel about the same area regardless if it has the limiter or not just allot less distance before it is bottom out with a limiter or more if not.

I know that you have gotten me to think for sure and I appreciate that. So I will be getting the Black Bush and putting the dial indicator on mine to make sure I am not at risk of screwing up something, though I have been doing this adjustment like for with limiter for a few years now and have no problems.

I guess best to find out for sure what the hell I got.

Thanks for making me think and giving me something to figure out.

Bottom line though, if one knows they have the limiter, go with the S&S recommendation for adjsuting with the HL2T, and they know that they do not got with the 4 turns or less after TDC and zero lash. If unsure, go with the 4 turns after TDC and zero lash and if after suffcient time for bleed down and the push rod does not run with a slight drag, then may have the HL2T in it.

Cheers and safe riding

 

[lee]

Lee, if your stock tappets are the same that mine where it sounds here the kit might not fit.

"33-5342 tappets are suitable for virtually all
applications without S&S Hydraulic Lifter Limited
Travel Kit recommended with previous lifters. If
customer elects to install HL2T kit, PN 33-5338
designed for 1984-’85 Harley-Davidson® Evolution®
engine tappets must be used."

http://www.sscycle.com/modules/instruction/uploads/51-1040.pdf

ok thanks Marv - I'm going to get the whole thing as mentioned above so should be good to go.

As for the rest of the posts (Marv, Al, Fiber) - great read! I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (well, not much of an idea anyway) but great read. How you boys know all this stuff I do not know. :2thumbs:

 

[V]

O.k. my .02. The limilters come in two sizes

1. .612 tappet bore size

2. .655 tappet bore size

This is determined by the lifter you have.
If you pull a 05 lifter as I did on mine the part number on the lifter does not match with the newer part number that S&S has on them now. S&S did sell lifters individually in the past but now sells them in packs of 4 only (does not mean that a dealer would not sell indivdiual if they purchased the 4 pack. mine did not so i had to buy 4).

There is a difference in adjusting the valves with and with out the limiters. Reading the instruction sheet explains the difference. the instructions are on S&S instruction sheet #51-1035.

On bikes with out the limiters we typically adjust 3 or 4 turns allow bleed down and lock the pushrod

With limiters " Extend pushrod until contact with the lifter, then extend pushrod 4 additional turns until piston assemblly is in contact with travel limiter and valve is lifted off its seat".

Allow assembly to bleed down.

Loosen pushrod adjustment until pushrod can be rotated with slight drag.

Continue loosing pushrod one full turn and lock down.

If I'm not mistaken hydralic lifters depend on oil pressure to pump them up. Our cam lift is based on pressure at the lifter. The limiters are designed to keep the cam lift up at high RPM so you can get the full benefits of the cam and not have the heavier spring presures keep the lifter from doing its job.

The old HD solid lifters were easy to adjust but a full solid would would probably shake our engines apart. The Hydralic provide a cushin of oil and pressure to help prevent this.

Okay now kick my arse

 

[MARV]

OK being gentle.

the 2 sizes of hlt2 limiters that V mentions i believe are bore sizes for different year tappets. i purchased the tappets with the limiters installed. think it was part #33-5338. i opened one up to be sure and if i recall the limiter measured .100

LIKE V SAID just in my words:

without limiters installed in the tappets rod adjustment is done at TDC. rod is shortened so the spring inside the tappet can extend. extend rod to zero lash then 3-4 turns longer. let tappet bleed down.

with limiters, at TDC extend the rods to bottom out the tappet. shorten rod to zero lash then 1 turn shorter.

difference is one way the tappets are extended, one way they are bottomed.

after bleed down period, you should be able to spin the rods. otherwise you have valve pressure on the rod and damage could result if motor is spun.


biggest gain of the limiters IMO is with a high lift cam at high rpm's the roller of the tappet has a better chance of staying in contact with the lobe of the cam. especially with after market ignitions with the rev limiter raised.

 

[alhall88]

And when hot, the cylinder itself will grow (in length) as much as .040.

 

[Fibersnake]

V and Marv,

Agree and glad someone could summarize the adjustments and difference between the two much more clear than I have been trying. Same results and great info.

I guess I need not to try to describe something after a long boring day at work so often.

Still need to measure and figure out what exactly is in my engine one of these days, mean time will keep going with the as with limiters adjustment.

You know what is kind of ironic though, why the hell are we even worry about the adjustment and have to do it so much, when in theory the hydraulic tappets should keep it adjusted for the most part, like our cars. Seldom does one have to re-adjust the hydrualic lifters on their car unlike the old small blocks with solid or something.

Safe riding to all

 

[dogvet]

BDM never ran the limiter kits that I'm aware of, it was too time consuming to try to quiet down the motor for fire up. It required more time (post test ride) to go back and re-adjust the pushrods on every motorcycle. There may be a few that went through production, but not many.

Typically,you end up backing the pushrod about 1 full turn after bottoming the lifter just to quiet things down. Since the stroke of the piston in the lifter is reduced, it takes more time for the lifter to fill with oil enough to cushion the valve train and quiet down

 

[lee]

thanks DV