Starter Motor Fried?

[Thors]

Hi guys and gals. Having a bit of an issue with my starter. After work today tried to start and it turned really slow and then not at all. I have a DIY slam button which is just a hole I drilled in the end cover and a stiff piece of fiberglass I carry. Keep tape over the hole and just punch through it in emergency. I was surprised when that did nothing. Comp releases still working fine btw and it sounds completely diff than when battery gets low. So I managed to push start (aint that fun in the sun!) and get home. Also of note, I rebuilt the starter (cleaned, new contacts and solenoid plunger and relief for oil drainage) about 3 weeks ago and its been fine.

So I got home and pulled it out. First thing I tried was a bench test hooking starter body to ground then positive to the motor wire tirminal (no solendoid at this point). Nothing. ?? So a direct connection to the motor yields nothing. Pulled the motor and cleaned with elec motor cleaner. Cleaned commutator, channels, brushes, etc... Put it all back together and tested just the motor by holding it real tight and touching it to the battery. Buzzes right to life. So I put the starter back together and bench test again. Nothing. ?? WTF?!? Pull the motor again and test...works fine. Put it back together and now the starter turns. I checked everything for loose connections as much as I could down inside the motor and found nothing. So I put it all back together and hit the button. Bike starts no prob. Woohoo! Crack a beer and call it a night. Put my tools back and figure why not try it again...and wouldn't you know I'm back to where I was after work. Turns super slow and chunky (start motor sounds wrong) and then not at all plus a little smoke from hole on the front side of the starter motor.

I checked the battery when it was starting good and it was fine. I'm going to go pull a reading with it not working and see what the draw down is. If that's Ok I'm going to pull it once more and check for continuity on the cummutator and non-continuity to the armature.

Any other tests I can run? Anyone have a starter motor itself shit the bed? I'm all ears!

Sorry for the long winded post!

 

[BadDawg Bill]

If the brushes are good you can take a dremmel and grind some insulation out between the grooves on the armature and see if that helps. Are you sure your battery is good and fully charged?

 

[KaptinAmerika]

 

[Macdwn]

Smoked my starter before biker blues. Curtis and Ray at WSW got it on Thurs and shipped back out on Fri. Can't beat that kind of turn around. Sounds like if your battery don't have a dead cell your starter needs a Roundtrip ticket to San Diego.

 

[Thors]

Now that cracked me up! It will most likely head your way Curtis! If in my case the motor itself is toast will the $125 rebuild still do the trick?


BadDawg, I did clean the furrows well and there's plenty of clearance there, at least 0.025" deep which seems to be in spec. When I pull it I'll test each segment for kicks.

As for the battery, seems good but I can't do a voltage pulldown because the starter does nothing once again. No change in V+ when I hit the button. The starter seems to not ground well. When I was messing with it continuity through to ground is intermittent even when bench testing. Is there a strap I missed that connects the motor housing internally to the rest of the starter body. The motor just slip fits back into the gear housing and 2 allen bolts hold it all together. Any chance I dropped a part? Tonight I'll yank it out, look at it once more, then send it off to Curtis if something doesn't jump out at me.


Thanks!

 

[firedog19]

I would just buy one of curtis WSW starters and be done with it they really kick the dog in the butt

 

[Thors]

Just noticed Curtis carries everything I could need to fix this..nice! I figure at this point it's likely the coil field or the armature. Even if its both it'll be about $60. I already rebuilt the starter (new plunger, contacts, total cleanout, etc...) bearings and gears are great and the solenoid is nice and strong so we're down to the electric motor itself. I'll see what I find tonight when I test the coils and armature.

 

[KaptinAmerika]

Before you assemble the motor case to the starter housing case connect the starter motor lead to battery positive and connect one of the negative brush housings to the battery negative. Yes it will spark a little and hold on because it will get away if it spins up. If it spins up great if not then you have narrowed down your troubleshooting. If it doesn't spin up then you may have a grounded field coil, bad armature, bad brush assembly etc., each of which has there own little checks for shorts.

 

[Thors]

Thanks Curtis! Will do once I get it out again.

 

[Thors]

Ok this is interesting. Did as Curtis suggested. Starter motor only, positive lead to V+ and neg brush housing to V-. Starter spun up. I did that off an on in 1 to 2 second burst and after the 3rd or 4th it started to slow way down and sound funny. Same symptoms as when it was in bike. Worked fine first time, then down the tubes. So I pulled it back apart and tested the commutator contacts and checked for short to the armature. All good there. Checked the positive brushes and leads for short to the motor can. Nothing . Good continuity from positive lead to positive brushes. No short from positive brush holders to ground brush holder. ??? I'm stumped. Seems like its heating up a little and then somethings no longer conducting well.

Up for suggestions.

 

[KaptinAmerika]

Check the starter motor lead to the starter motor case for a short as well as the brushes to the case for a short. Kind of sounds like the field coil may be failing.

 

[BadDawg Bill]

Ok this is interesting. Did as Curtis suggested. Starter motor only, positive lead to V+ and neg brush housing to V-. Starter spun up. I did that off an on in 1 to 2 second burst and after the 3rd or 4th it started to slow way down and sound funny. Same symptoms as when it was in bike. Worked fine first time, then down the tubes. So I pulled it back apart and tested the commutator contacts and checked for short to the armature. All good there. Checked the positive brushes and leads for short to the motor can. Nothing . Good continuity from positive lead to positive brushes. No short from positive brush holders to ground brush holder. ??? I'm stumped. Seems like its heating up a little and then somethings no longer conducting well.

Up for suggestions.

Send it to Ray or buy a new one from Curtis... You are going to dive yourself crazy....:bang:

 

[Thors]

Send it to Ray or buy a new one from Curtis... You are going to dive yourself crazy....:bang:

I hear ya. But for me it would drive me nuts to send it off without figuring it out first! :up:

So tonight I was getting ready to call Raywood as he offered to help out (thanks for the offer man!) I pulled the starter apart again and got my meter and cables ready. Now had I taken a picture of the brushes and end cap one of you probably would have seen it right away. Turns out it was the positive brushes. I knew they were worn but figured I could get by. Well the design of the brush cage makes it so the lead going into the brush hits the cage before the brush is fully pressed to the commutator...if the brushes are worn enough. I could move the commutator laterally between the two positive brushes and even a small movement would cause the opposite brush to loose contact. Try the same with the negatives which are still nice and chunky and no way you'll loose contact. All makes perfect sense now. Shitty contact = extra arcing and heat = crusty brush surface = very quick degradation of starter with each use. Quick fix and proof of concept was to dremel the cage relief an extra mm or so to allow the brush to extend a bit more. Thoroughly cleaned the whole thing again with Lectra-motive, lubed the bearings and reassembled. Bench test was completely different. WAY more powerful. Buttoned it back up and now the bike turns over like its got a brand new starter and battery. So now for a few $$ I can order a new cage and positive brush/coil set and basically have a brand new starter. Spent a few hours dicking with it but thats all part of the fun!

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[FrankBDPS]

Congrats and good work. Nice to fix things on your own and not get ripped off by someone. My Wildsteed starter is one cranking SOB. Very happy with it.

 

[BadDawg Bill]

You are one patient dude... I'd hate to get on your bad side :lol: