Rear wheel won't turn in gear/starter issue part 2

[toadstool]

My bike won't start. I tried many things and finally replaced the starter. I took my primary apart when I replaced the starter because the bike still would't start and the battery tested good. I see that the jackshaft engages but doesn't turn the primary gear. I adjusted the clutch push-rod per the forum recommendation, barely touching the diaphragm and backing off 1/4 turn. I adjusted the clutch cable using the coin method. When I pull the lever I see the clutch assembly move outward.

The bike is on a jack with the spark plugs removed. I can turn the rear wheel while the bike is in neutral without difficulty. When I shift into first the rear wheel is frozen. It turns 1/32 of a rotation, taking up slack (?) then bang... it stops. When I try to turn the rear wheel by essentially doing the bang bang repeatedly I can see the clutch turn ever so slightly. When I pull in the clutch lever there is no difference, the same thing occurs.

Once in a while I can spin the rear wheel while trying to find other gears and I can hear the compression of the engine escaping through the spark plug holes. I do not know what gear this is because the rear wheel fails to turn the majority of the time.

Now my thought process has changed from a starter problem to something preventing the starter from turning the engine over.

 

[Sven]

To turn the engine over you'll want the trans in top gear. By smelling the oil you may detect a burnt aluminum smell, not a normal smell of oil that has a more tolerable smell. Since you can hear the compression, it might not be seized, because the motor should turn the engine over if you can statically move the engine in 1st.

1. With an open handle pair of pliers, or pliers that has bare handles, spread the one handle to the engine, the other on the motor case. Hit starter button. No joy? Leave the one handle end on the motor case, the other handle end on a good known ground on the frame. Still no joy, touch the ground cable that attaches to the frame and feel the ground cable for heat. Joy? Then remove the ground cable, scrape the ground cable and the frame to the point of showing fresh metal at the eye of the cable side that touches the frame and the frame that touches the cable's eye when both make contact.

2. Can't be the relay, starter button/switch, key to relay; because you see the jackshaft move when you press the starter button, right?

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Since you have the primary off, I'd pull the clutch assembly off entirely.
To me, it sound more like a serious transmission issue.

Or since the plugs are out and the primary is off you could put a socket in the engine nut and turn it counter clockwise. Engine should turn over easy without plugs and the rear wheel should move, it the engine turns over when in neutral and not when in gear, pulling clutch/transmission would be my next step.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Spark plugs are out and you can't turn the rear tire by hand, even if you keep shifting up?

You should be able to turn the tire a bit the. back and forth through each gear into 6th. Turning the tire in lower gears would be challenging.

Try getting it into 6th before you do anything else and see if you can move the tire by hand.

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[toadstool]

Th3InfamousI
I shifted up to 6th and can turn the rear wheel without difficulty. Thank you for the information.

Sven
I have the battery out of the bike and isolated all of the wiring harness from the equation. I am using jumper cables attached directly to the battery and the starter. The jumper cable ground is attached to the mounting bolt. The following is happening.
1) When I hook the + directly to the starter motor the starter spins in place.
2) When I hook the + to the solenoid and jump the little plug on the side (where the green wire attaches) to the battery the jackshaft pops out and engages the drive gear but nothing turns.
3) When I attach the + to the starter solenoid and engage the slam button the jackshaft engages the drive gear but nothing turns.

* The battery load tested good with 359 CCA and 12.8 + V
* The starter is brand new 2 KW
* The cables get warm
* The jackshaft stays engaged into the drive gear when the battery is disconnected and I have to tap it back in resting position
* I have uninstalled and reinstalled the starter several times to make sure everything was lined up. There are only two bolts so I'm not sure how it could be misaligned but I'm stumped
* It appears the jumper cable has melted at one of the connections.

My next step will be to order custom heavy duty battery wires but I'd like to know if this was really the issue. I'd think standard car jumper cables would be fine in this instance?

 

[Sven]

Loosen the motor at the two bolts. Yes, it's almost tight are the motor bolts, but you want the jackshaft to find its static position. So do not slam it, but clamp the jumper cable ends on the frame(-) and motor lug(+). Take a sacrificial bolt at the battery post ground side, clamp the posi to the posi side of the battery, tap the ground [bolt] with the jumper and make sure you touch the bolt, not the lead or the post will melt via arc. This way there is no slam finger altering the centering of the motor to shaft to flywheel teeth on the clutch outer. Tighten bolts, see if the shaft retracts when you touch the sacrificial bolt at the battery post again to test for retraction. Loosen bolts and try again of not found its centering point.

Remember, this is a seasoned bike with condensation around the ground connections, green oxy on the male/female ends of the connectors, etc. You want clean touch contacts at the frame/eng/component grounds. Scrape/file to raw metal to replace ground integrity so you do not chase your tail on rusted/condensation induced contact points on the bike.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Th3InfamousI
I shifted up to 6th and can turn the rear wheel without difficulty. Thank you for the information.

Sven
I have the battery out of the bike and isolated all of the wiring harness from the equation. I am using jumper cables attached directly to the battery and the starter. The jumper cable ground is attached to the mounting bolt. The following is happening.
1) When I hook the + directly to the starter motor the starter spins in place.
2) When I hook the + to the solenoid and jump the little plug on the side (where the green wire attaches) to the battery the jackshaft pops out and engages the drive gear but nothing turns.
3) When I attach the + to the starter solenoid and engage the slam button the jackshaft engages the drive gear but nothing turns.

* The battery load tested good with 359 CCA and 12.8 + V
* The starter is brand new 2 KW
* The cables get warm
* The jackshaft stays engaged into the drive gear when the battery is disconnected and I have to tap it back in resting position
* I have uninstalled and reinstalled the starter several times to make sure everything was lined up. There are only two bolts so I'm not sure how it could be misaligned but I'm stumped
* It appears the jumper cable has melted at one of the connections.

My next step will be to order custom heavy duty battery wires but I'd like to know if this was really the issue. I'd think standard car jumper cables would be fine in this instance?

You have the ground wire hooked up to the starter Bolt and battery ground? Right?

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[toadstool]

I ordered custom zero gauge battery cable wires and the motor turns over with kick ass force. After two years, two bike shops, and $1200 the problem I solved was failure to start due to loose handlebar controls and bad battery wires. I replaced the starter which probably wasn't the problem. I cleaned the handle bar control contacts and added conductive grease to the connections. I replaced both the ground and positive battery cables for about $20. I cleaned, greased and sealed every electrical contact on the entire bike. I learned a lot tearing the bike apart. It was actually fun. I thank the forum members for their input.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

I ordered custom zero gauge battery cable wires and the motor turns over with kick ass force. After two years, two bike shops, and $1200 the problem I solved was failure to start due to loose handlebar controls and bad battery wires. I replaced the starter which probably wasn't the problem. I cleaned the handle bar control contacts and added conductive grease to the connections. I replaced both the ground and positive battery cables for about $20. I cleaned, greased and sealed every electrical contact on the entire bike. I learned a lot tearing the bike apart. It was actually fun. I thank the forum members for their input.

I had a feeling it was the ground connection when it worked off the bike! Glad you got it fixed

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[Sven]

* The cables get warm... but I'd like to know if this was really the issue.

I would think so. Most switches have their own ground wire so a loose switch would arc if that were the case of a switch acting the ground. If it were connectors, it would be muli-problematic you'd think. So the only thing you changed were fresh cables with a break at the mount points bringing back a ground's integrity. I can only conclude the ground was the $1200 issue.

Too bad the clucktussfuckers were not more knowledgeable chasing aged ground integrity. Sort of a basic step for me as far as frame vs ground at the battery. Same as is the first thing to check is the compression on an engine before you tune it. Saves lots of money and time chasing your tail.

 

[toadstool]

I would think so. Most switches have their own ground wire so a loose switch would arc if that were the case of a switch acting the ground. If it were connectors, it would be muli-problematic you'd think. So the only thing you changed were fresh cables with a break at the mount points bringing back a ground's integrity. I can only conclude the ground was the $1200 issue.

Too bad the clucktussfuckers were not more knowledgeable chasing aged ground integrity. Sort of a basic step for me as far as frame vs ground at the battery. Same as is the first thing to check is the compression on an engine before you tune it. Saves lots of money and time chasing your tail.

In their defense, I did have a rats nest of wires. I had a lojack tracking system with unauthorized bike movement detection installed when I got the bike so there were relays and wires from that. Then I had a nitrous oxide system installed so there were additional wiring harnesses and relays. It looked intimidating. I pulled all that shit and started fresh.

 

[Sven]

Not going to buy it. I'd look at the 3 variable first and could approach it 2 ways. Battery-Flow-Starter. Load test battery = Not it. Take a test light to the relay = Flow from bat to switch to relay and it lights so it's not it. Then bench test the starter with jumper cables and leave the battery and starter in the bike for the bench = Spins the bike over so this confirms push-(amps) out of the battery is good, the starter clears as well... is the load test shows good without pulling out the battery/starter. Variable 4 are the ground points and is the only thing left.

Therefore, if I wanted to flat rate the starting system checking the 3V's, I'd take the jumper cables and ground the bike's engine to frame times 3, and the 4th cable end is on the neg-batt post; start the bike with new cables via remote.

See cashier on the way out.

Signed,
Only your jumper cables knows for sure.

 

[Blackie]

I would think so. Most switches have their own ground wire so a loose switch would arc if that were the case of a switch acting the ground. If it were connectors, it would be muli-problematic you'd think. So the only thing you changed were fresh cables with a break at the mount points bringing back a ground's integrity. I can only conclude the ground was the $1200 issue.

Too bad the clucktussfuckers were not more knowledgeable chasing aged ground integrity. Sort of a basic step for me as far as frame vs ground at the battery. Same as is the first thing to check is the compression on an engine before you tune it. Saves lots of money and time chasing your tail.

Clucktussfuckers....!! I love it. I thought us Texans had some funny sayings!