Okay, I give... PLEASE HELP!!!

[Sven]

I've been cranking out a few bikes the last part of the year? Goes fast.

I might be wrong, but the cam sensor is more for faster starting? Takes less cranks, meaning. So even if the cam sensor smelled bad, I believe the bike can still run without.

Only thing making the whole bike not start is the crank sensor. Most everything else has a backup system that the ECU can override and send out the correct signal in a 'redundant' way; to still communicate to the jobbers (spark/injectors).

My best guess is still going back to that pin and flicker; loose wire scenario.

 

[bigdogtech01]

His bike DOES NOT have a crank sensor. His has a cam sensor. It sends signal to the Ignition under his seat, which sends signal to his coils. I'm still leaning towards the EHC, or that Ignition under seat. Not sure how Thunder Heart tests them, but they might not test it while under vibration. I believe that heat and vibration are number one killers for the electronics on these bikes.
With all that said, if the cam sensor goes bad, the bike WILL NOT start up. But, the bike is still getting spark. It's possible its a weak spark yes. If something is shorting to ground, this would cause a weak spark.
What did you replace the cam sensor with? Brand?

 

[Sven]

His bike DOES NOT have a crank sensor. His has a cam sensor. It sends signal to the Ignition under his seat, which sends signal to his coils.

Before cam sensors, there was a cup and a hall effect magnet that the cup spun thru. Once the cup hit that open window = Spark.

That was electronic ignition going way back. So, from points to cup to sensor slots in the crank throws is what we are up to, no? Here again is a hall effect happening in the squares in the crank cuts. That is more or less a 360° ring counter with slots all the way around.

Things like lost spark, where the coil still fired on the exhaust stroke? Right? All of a sudden, the cone cup had one window, not two. The two window cup cut was a lost spark at the exhaust. Then the cup only had one slot out of it. No longer did it fire twice.

Enter the cam sensor. It showed where the crank was positioned in 'Sequence.' Thus the term, 'sequential fire' is to crank less times or more or less, some take 24 [slot] counts to start up; is a failed cam sensor.

To go deeper; Cam sensor fails, the ECU remembered its last square wave or resistance. It now knows where to fire in the sequence. Once the key is turned off, the last good known signal is used. Turn the key off with an unknown signal save? = No Start.

That is why I sort of disagree with the cam calling the timing. It is the intake air pressure sensor, or more it is called a, 'load type ignition system.' So, the intake pressure calls the ball, not the cam. The crank calls the speed and load calls the spark timing.

Think about it. You are in one gear going up a hill or grade. You do not change gears. You load more throttle opening. Did the cam move faster or slower to set the ignition too retarded, or too advanced; the engine starts pinging and knocking.

And if the cam sensor is the spark maker, then there should be an empty cone without an ignition system in it like old style, right? Just asking, because I don't know where to read a shop manual or I just learned something new about cams and spark timing.

 

[Sven]

I'm still leaning towards the EHC, or that Ignition under seat.

The complaint is the spark comes and goes. The lights flicker. I still lean toward a loose connection that comes and goes or turns on or shuts off and still the parts all function when the wire integrity is sound.

I'm stepping the action. So, key on, and what wire is the (+) output wire? There, I would take an ohm meter to see if the key is hot? Then that wire out to the EHC.

 

[KaptinAmerika]

The complaint has not been
"Spark comes and goes"
The complaint has been
"The bike runs for five minutes and then dies"
Correct me if I'm wrong PitBullKC please.

 

[Sven]

"The bike runs for five minutes and then dies"
Correct me if I'm wrong PitBullKC please.

WATT happened to the flicker? :roll:

Run this scenario:

Tape a timing light to the bars so it faces you. Tape down the trigger too. For 5 minutes, the engine is going to die either two ways. The spark is going to keep the timing light running, do not pull the clutch in, but be prepared to notice if the spark continues when the engine "dies" = Fuel Issue.

 

[bigdogtech01]

The complaint has not been
"Spark comes and goes"
The complaint has been
"The bike runs for five minutes and then dies"
Correct me if I'm wrong PitBullKC please.

Your correct Kaptin. He said he has checked spark a number of times, and he has spark even after bike dies. No idea what this other guy is talking about. The cam sensor, Ignition Module, and Ignition Coils are all part of Ignition system. It sounds like this other guy is talking about a VOES switch. This bike does not have one and you do not need one to have the motor run. Most all ignition systems you buy will have the option to hook up a wire to VOES. If there is no VOES, you just tape/heat shrink wire up.
Im saying EHC because inside you have a few relays, and circuit breakers. If something is shorting out inside the EHC or a wire on the outside, it can trip one of the circuit breakers.
At this point, we are all just throwing ideas around. It would be MUCH easier for any one of us to diagnose and find his problem if we had the bike in front of us.

 

[DRBarnhart]

Your correct Kaptin. He said he has checked spark a number of times, and he has spark even after bike dies.

True enough! :up:

Im saying EHC because inside you have a few relays, and circuit breakers. If something is shorting out inside the EHC or a wire on the outside, it can trip one of the circuit breakers.

While I wouldn't rule out what you're saying here Andrew, I have a hard time getting past the clogged accelerator pump pattern. I can't help but think there's something still in the carb (fuel system?) plugging up a jet or passage and starving it out. If that were true it would explain his symptoms exactly wouldn't it?

It would be MUCH easier for any one of us to diagnose and find his problem if we had the bike in front of us.

That ain't no shit!!! :2thumbs:

Dennis

 

[KaptinAmerika]

WATT happened to the flicker? :roll:

Run this scenario:

Tape a timing light to the bars so it faces you. Tape down the trigger too. For 5 minutes, the engine is going to die either two ways. The spark is going to keep the timing light running, do not pull the clutch in, but be prepared to notice if the spark continues when the engine "dies" = Fuel Issue.

Now this idea I like
Get back to the basic and lock down electric or fuel issue first then go from there.

 

[bigdogtech01]

True enough! :up:While I wouldn't rule out what you're saying here Andrew, I have a hard time getting past the clogged accelerator pump pattern. I can't help but think there's something still in the carb (fuel system?) plugging up a jet or passage and starving it out. If that were true it would explain his symptoms exactly wouldn't it? That ain't no shit!!! :2thumbs:

Dennis

He should clean the nozzle and completely eliminate that, yes. But, you can in fact turn the pump all the way off with bike at idle and motor will still run. Idle will change, but will still run. This is actually the "correct" procedure on adjusting the Fuel/Air screw. Adjust with accelerator pump screw turned off.
I could be wrong, but still feeling like it's electrical, not fuel.
Lets place some bets, Lol

 

[stlmikie]

I'm sending him a known good ehc. This should eliminate that anyway. One way or the other.

 

[bigdogtech01]

I'm sending him a known good ehc. This should eliminate that anyway. One way or the other.

Sounds good :2thumbs:

 

[Mojo]

Im saying EHC because inside you have a few relays, and circuit breakers. If something is shorting out inside the EHC or a wire on the outside, it can trip one of the circuit breakers.

If the bike still has spark when it dies, it is not the EHC or ignition system since he has replaced the enitire ignition system. I would like to know how long it takes for it to re-start. Bring it down to Will and Doug. I work there. I can fix it if I can get it to fail...

 

[DRBarnhart]

But, you can in fact turn the pump all the way off with bike at idle...

While I understand all that I still think if there's enough foreign matter in the carb to clog up the accelerator pump it stands to reason that there's enough material floating around to clog other passages. If there's a flaw in my logic please point it out, it's the only way I'll learn new stuff! :2thumbs:

I could be wrong, but still feeling like it's electrical, not fuel.

While you could be right I haven't seen/heard anything that would make me come to that same conclusion. :lol:

Lets place some bets, Lol

I'm listening... :roll:

Dennis

 

[DRBarnhart]

If the bike still has spark when it dies, it is not the EHC or ignition system since he has replaced the enitire ignition system.

:iagree:

Dennis

 

[Brew]

I'm in agreement also! Sounds like a fuel delivery issue going on here. Whether it stem in the tank or carb.

 

[reloaderbmg]

IVE HAD THIS HAPPEN ON SMALL ENGINES BEFORE
IF YOU HAVE A LOOP IN THE FUEL HOSE
TO THE CARB. IT WILL AIR LOCK THE FUEL.
PULL OFF THE HOSE, LET IT FLOW[THIS WILL ALSO CHECK COMPLETE TANK SYSTEM.
CHANGE GAS!!
GO TO NEW GAS STATION NOT WHERE YOU BOUGHT THE STUFF THATS IN THE TANK NOW
93 OCTANE, DRAIN TANK, DON,T FORGET TO FLUSH HOSE AGAIN ON CARB.!
"LET US KNOW!"

 

[Sven]

Fuel Issue:

1. Top off the gas tank. This takes up all the air and will happen quicker than waiting 5 minutes for it to stop running.
2. Find a hose and attach it to the petcock outlet. Run the hose back in the gas can.
3. Turn the petcock on and let it run:
a. Vapor lock will happen and the gas will begin to trickle out or stop even.
b. You twist the gas cap off and if the gas starts flowing out, it's the vent in the cap.
c. No change of flow? Then the filter is getting clogged enough to let some flow, but not when the demand is greater than 5 or so minutes of idling or running up and down the road.

Yeah and since we are not there to listen to the bike die, is it a guillotine type of die or does it spurt and die with a cough and a hiccup? That is why you want the timing light to keep running, or it does when the bike dies.

Or the OP comes back and explains if it is a hiccup or instantly dies.

 

[bigdogtech01]

Fuel Issue:

1. Top off the gas tank. This takes up all the air and will happen quicker than waiting 5 minutes for it to stop running.
2. Find a hose and attach it to the petcock outlet. Run the hose back in the gas can.
3. Turn the petcock on and let it run:
a. Vapor lock will happen and the gas will begin to trickle out or stop even.
b. You twist the gas cap off and if the gas starts flowing out, it's the vent in the cap.
c. No change of flow? Then the filter is getting clogged enough to let some flow, but not when the demand is greater than 5 or so minutes of idling or running up and down the road.

Yeah and since we are not there to listen to the bike die, is it a guillotine type of die or does it spurt and die with a cough and a hiccup? That is why you want the timing light to keep running, or it does when the bike dies.

Or the OP comes back and explains if it is a hiccup or instantly dies.

He already explained in another post that it just dies. No change in idle at all. It just flat out dies. I had also told him to check the float bowl after the bike dies to see if fuel is in bowl. Not sure if he has done this yet. But it sounds like he's getting frustrated with it so he may have pushed it off a cliff at this point
Like I said before, motor will still run even with clogged accelerator nozzle. It will not throttle up well if it's clogged, but it will idle. Plus, if that was the cause, it would not idle for a few min then die. It would not start at all if that was the case.
We can look at all kinds of reasons why his bike will not run, such as bad ignition, bad ground, fuel issue, even push rod adjustment out of spec....But fact is, the motor does run, but only runs for 5 minutes or so. This leads me to believe it's electrical related, not fuel.
But, next time the bike dies, quickly turn Petcock off, then pull plug on bottom of carb bowl...if no fuel comes out or very little, then you know it is a fuel delivery problem.
We already know he has cleaned the carb and tank and there is no contaminants in the fuel.

 

[KaptinAmerika]

PitbullKC
May I recommend that you kill this thread, copy your original post and start a new thread.