Oil question, thoughts???

[CapRayT]

I have very little to offer here. But to back up some of what SMCT was saying. I have no personal knowledge about the matter, but I know others that are engine builders that have said the same thing about the Moble oil. But they recomend Dello 400 or Rotella for the zink content, or the Valvoline. One of the biggest things that stuck out in my head had nothing to do with Mobil, but Royal Purple. When i got the rear end for my jeep from East Coast gear, I had the conversation about fluid preference for warranty preference. The response was what ever you are comfortable with except for Royal Purple. He went to explain that was the only oil that would void the warranty and assured me if there was a failure, they would know it was being run. He then went on to explain to me about the difference between synthetic and dino oils. He talked very highly about the lucas products also. The thing he pointed out was why run synthetics. I used the usual response of longer life and less breakdown with heat. He then asked me how often I changed fluids, in my jeep it was a couple times of year because of mudd and water from wheeling. He then pointed out how the fluids will not be in there long enough to get any use out of the extended life, and also that i was not in the race world, threefore probably wouldn't be pushing the limits to create the heat needed to break down the dino oil. SInce that conversation, I run oil. My thoughts are if you change your oil every 3k miles, why pay more for an extended life fluid, especially when there is a chance it will not preform they way you want. SO, i certonally have no professional opinion from the stand point of a big twin, for I have little experience with anything farther than bolting them ina frame, never built them. BUt I am willingt lisen to the guy that does. Thanks for the info SMCT.

 

[cdogg556]

Thanks Ray, that info just seals the deal for me, plus it's a lot cheaper!

 

[Th3InfamousI]

It's not alarming that many people use this oil, and many people tend to gravitate to the companies that happen to have the best marketing as well as the easiest accessible products. Hell, you can walk into any walmart and buy yourself some. You can walk into any super market and get yourself some as well. I've been at it, and in the engine building business for quite some time, so I get first hand experience to look into these engines season after season and year after year. We study failures very closely. Years ago I was a huge fan of Mobil synthetics and that was through the 80's, and as the times changed, so did the Mobil product, and in my opinion, not for the better. I've witnessed just an excessive amount of tapet failures on Mobile oil and I have gone away from that mass marketed and mass produced product. My personal choice for an easy to get oil, is Valvoline VR1 Racing non synthetic. the VV 205 is a 10-30 and the VV211 is the 20-50. We use this in our engine shop and it does have 1100 ppm (Parts per million) of phosphorous and 1100 parts per million of zinc. It's the phos content that really protects that metal to metal interaction in the engine. The mobile along with many other "shelf oils" have less than the limit of 700. 700 is the legal limitation for zinc and phos content to be sold on a shelf. Some other oils that are really good in my opinion are Synergyn, Shaffer, Joe Gibbs and Amsoil. Some of the oils I mentioned have close to, if not over 2000 PPM of zinc and phos.

I have Valvoline VR1 Racing 20-50 in my 117 S&S engine.

Per Mobil1 documentation their Vtwin oil has 1750ppm zinc and 1600 ppm phosphorus.

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[Big D Florida]

quick question,
So yesterday I did a complete fluid change on the bike. Filled the transmission with redline with shockproof. Tonight I decided to top off the oil tank off with the Mobil one synthetic. Well after topping it off I realized there was some residual redline transmission oil on my funnel that mixed with the oil.
I don't think it matters with the motor but wanted some of your thoughts?
1. Keep riding
2. Drain and refill?

Keep riding... The trace amount that was on the funnel will not effect the engine or oil.
As far as product choice, as you can see opinions vary. Lucas has great products, personally I prefer Amsoil... It's pricey but has never let me down. I've used it for years in both street and racing applications.
Again, my opinion or advice are worth exactly what you paid for them... Nothing.

Good luck, ride safe

 

[DrRx]

That's probably just a rod knocking Doc, Nothing to worry about, It'll just sling the bearing out sooner or later, unless it seizes in the journal,..... Just kidding but I do run Amsoil in all my bikes.

That shit wasn't funny paul!!! You need to quit screwing with my head and sell me those rims. Lol


DrRx- "DOC"
2007 bulldog/2009 K-9

 

[BadDawg Bill]

I ran my S&S 107 for 212k miles and the only thing I did to it was new head gaskets at 180k. I used V-twin oil with 4 ounces of Slick-50 every 5k miles. The bike is still running well. Since I ride at least 3 days a week all year long changing my oil every 3k would be a real PIA. I think the Slick-50 makes a big difference. If you add it to a car or truck that has never had it before while it is running you will see the rpms go up at idle because of less friction. A friend of mine used to sell another product like it and he would drain the oil from a 4 cy motor on a stand , take the oil pan off and run it all day without oil at a flea market to show how well it coats the parts. People couldn't believe it.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

I ran my S&S 107 for 212k miles and the only thing I did to it was new head gaskets at 180k. I used V-twin oil with 4 ounces of Slick-50 every 5k miles. The bike is still running well. Since I ride at least 3 days a week all year long changing my oil every 3k would be a real PIA. I think the Slick-50 makes a big difference. If you add it to a car or truck that has never had it before while it is running you will see the rpms go up at idle because of less friction. A friend of mine used to sell another product like it and he would drain the oil from a 4 cy motor on a stand , take the oil pan off and run it all day without oil at a flea market to show how well it coats the parts. People couldn't believe it.

Less friction isn't always good...

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[Big D Florida]

Less friction isn't always good...

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Have you experienced clutch slipping issues with Slick 50... Also, we experienced some issues with it (Slick-50) causing debris in our air-cooled racing engine from the Teflon flaking into the oil... Not a fan of it in air-cooled power plants.

 

[Big D Florida]

Remember, "air-cooled" is actually "oil-cooled", thermodynamically speaking.

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Have you experience clutch slipping issues with Slick 50... Also, we expetience some issues with it causing debris in our air-cooled racing engines for from the Teflon falling into the oil... Not a fan of it in air-cooled power plants.

Primary always use non synthetic. Straight up ATF Type F fluid is great, you can grab some B&M Trick Shift Non Synthetic oil on Amazon for about $7 a pop which is pretty good too.

Barnett, Baker, Primo all the clutch companies recommend ATF type F. Type F doesn't have the friction modifiers as the design was for pre 70's style transmissions



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[TapioK]

Less friction isn't always good...

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You talking about ladies again?

 

[Th3InfamousI]

You talking about ladies again?

No that environment less friction is ALWAYS good! That's why they make lube. Hell this Slick50 snake oil that Bill says might work too..haha

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[SMCT]

The thing he pointed out was why run synthetics. I used the usual response of longer life and less breakdown with heat. He then asked me how often I changed fluids, in my jeep it was a couple times of year because of mudd and water from wheeling. He then pointed out how the fluids will not be in there long enough to get any use out of the extended life, and also that i was not in the race world, threefore probably wouldn't be pushing the limits to create the heat needed to break down the dino oil.

He is absolutely correct.

Ok, so what is the deal with synthetic oils and these auto manufactures now? well, it all boils down to viscosity for fuel economy. A synthetic oil will show an increase in fuel economy over the same given weight oil in a petroleum base. The engines clearances are getting tighter as technology advancements are being made. This is really pertaining to the oem market. It's the machines that make the parts are manufacturing these engine parts with more consistency and tighter plus and minus tolerances. The main and rod journals are getting smaller and typically with smaller journals you can run tighter tolerances as well. You actually need a 5-30 or a 5-20 in some of these oem engines of today. What I said above, coupled with a back room sweet heart deal, and you have your manufacture now endorsing a product like mobile synthetic oil.

Morgan Lucas and the Lucas family race in that same environment that I do. I haven't used or tested their products, so I can't actually comment. When you are content with a product and everything looks great, then the emphasis on looking further, has kinda lost it's luster. In my industry, I have heard that they have pretty good products.

P.S. Mobile has a shit load of different oil products, and the average consumer only sees about 20 percent of them, if that. It's the 20 percent that is mass marketed and stuffed onto the shelves in walmart and auto parts stores.

 

[BWG56]

That's probably just a rod knocking Doc, Nothing to worry about, It'll just sling the bearing out sooner or later, unless it seizes in the journal,..... Just kidding but I do run Amsoil in all my bikes.

Is that the bike you put the saw dust in to quite it down?
Did you punch a hole in the filter so it doesn't clog up also?

 

[BWG56]

Last time I'm telling you chit. Can't keep a trade secret for nutin.

My bad

 

[BadDawg Bill]

Have you experienced clutch slipping issues with Slick 50... Also, we experienced some issues with it (Slick-50) causing debris in our air-cooled racing engine from the Teflon flaking into the oil... Not a fan of it in air-cooled power plants.

I don't put it in a primary. I've never had a problem with the oil filter clogging up. It also drops temps down about 5 - 10 degrees. You know if you can run a motor all day after using this without oil then something has to be going on that's good and I've seen it with my own eyes...

 

[SMCT]

You have to be very careful when you have a super lubricant in the crankcase, especially with a roller lifter, such as what is in many of these engines. Two issues could occur and it's been documented that in a situation whereas your oil has components in it that are too slick, you will skid the roller wheel on the camshaft lobe and you can skid the needles as well on the lifters axle and wheel i.d. In the years past, it was not uncommon for race teams to add Prolong into the oil. Prolong was added to prevent the galling of the pushrods in the pro stock engines, and it worked. Prolong in the engine, no pushrod tip wear, no Prolong and it would gall up and burn the pushrod tips. I ran out of a shop that won the NHRA Pro stock championship. It could possibly have been NHRAs largest sponsored car to date. The team of Jim Yates with the McDonald Pro Stock Firebird.

There was mention of Royal Purple in this discussion as well. Royal Purple at the time when it was introduced into the marketplace, was an oil that offered that edge in drag racing, and rightfully so, because that shit was like water. Although if you had it in your engine for more than about 7 to 9 passes, you can kiss that shit goodbye, meaning your engine. Some teams would change it after 3 passes. Since then Royal Purple had grown and now offers many products, no different then any other oil company.

I would suggest to stay away from super lubricants such as slick 50 and Prolong in these Big Dog engines. I personally do not believe it is good for the piston rings or the cylinder walls, and for sure it is not good for the lifters needles and wheel.

I don't believe in any synthetics when there is clutch and steels as we have proven that there could be clutch slippage with synthetics on the clutch material. We see slippage show up in a loss of mph when back to back testing synthetic vs.non synthetic in a transmission.

Barnett, Baker, Primo all the clutch companies recommend ATF type F. Type F doesn't have the friction modifiers as the design was for pre 70's style transmissions

I bought cases up of Dextron 2 when I found out that there was going to be a change that wasn't for the better. It allowed for better clutch to steel release, although the F's viscosity has been higher then the Dextron and allowed for a firmer shift in automatic transmissions due to the pumps pressure being more from the higher viscosity. I am a huge fan of the Dextron 2, but it is impossible to find the original 2 stuff.

 

[ground pounder]

Heck in the old days we used to run a little trans fluid in with the engine oil when a motor would start burning oil. It would help to clean the piston rings and make them swell a little bit. But heck we used to put a quart in when we changed the oil! LOL!!! Shouldn't hurt a thing with the little residue on a funnel.

 

[BadDawg Bill]

I would suggest to stay away from super lubricants such as slick 50 and Prolong in these Big Dog engines. I personally do not believe it is good for the piston rings or the cylinder walls, and for sure it is not good for the lifters needles and wheel.

And how many miles do you have on your S&S? Right now my old S&S has 248k on it (I called my buddy and asked) and it doesn't burn any oil and nothing has been done to the motor... I respect everyone's opinion but can you beat 248k just using regular motor oil?

 

[ground pounder]

Only 37,000 so far on the 117, but that will change!!! LOL!!! Had an old 64, 900 iron head with the kind of miles your talking about Bill and the heads etc. were never off it!