Lithium Batterys

[cvegmond]

I have seen a few posts about the pros and cons of lithium batteries.

I am aware that the starter motors on the 117 ci engines have a maximum draw of about 700 amps. That's alot consdering the lead acid battery for our bikes are rated for 310 cold cracking amps. Apparently we can put more a lot more power to the starter, which should help the "struggling" start.

The Shorai makes two lithuim batteries. One is 360 CCA and the other at 405 CCA.

A motorcycle drag racer friend and mechanic swears by these new lithium batteries. Of course, this drag bike has no charging system.

No, I don't beleive the silly Youtube videos of exploding lithium batteries. This battery needs to be a proper application of the technology as it is in lithium-ion batteries for electric cars and motorcycles.

Has anyone installed either of the Shorai batteries?

They are supposed to last 3 years...that's a big claim for my daily K-9 commuter.

Thanks, Cor.

 

[Dawgboy]

Not the Shorai, but a bud tried a lithium. Battery had an internal short and lasted about 5 sec. I am sure AGMs can fail as well. Li was incredibly light.

 

[PROFLYER]

I have one in my CBR1000RR. I like it, small and light. I bought a braille when my battery died finally but I don't think it's any better than the old big dog one. The lithium ones are great, they just can be fickle about charging systems.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I just put the Shorai in my 08 K-9 the 405 CCA unit you mentioned.
It's absurdly light.
It changes how you start when cold/chilly.
The first hit it sounds dead
wait 20 seconds
The second hit - it sounds weak
wait 20 seconds
The third hit - it sounds like a full charge and you should start if all else is well
Mine needs the 4th hit usually but was also taking several shots with lead acid to start in the morning.

Once you get used to that, it seems fine. I'm hoiping it does better as all the lead acid I've used have never had great longevity.

I replaced the battery last year and I was starting to hear the signs of weakness already, not leaving me hanging but just the change of power that you hear when you know its not a fresh new battery.

Since I'm headed on a trip I decided to be preventative and try this. Will keep everyone posted on my results.

battery was $252 and if I get 2 or more seasons out of it will be worth it since most I normally get is 1yr out of a lead acid. (10-15K miles)

 

[BigDogBro1]

No, I don't beleive the silly Youtube videos of exploding lithium batteries. This battery needs to be a proper application of the technology as it is in lithium-ion batteries for electric cars and motorcycles.

Not silly at all. You just explained why: "This battery needs to be a proper application of the technology as it is in lithium-ion batteries for electric cars and motorcycles"

The charging systems on the Bigdog MC do not nor will not properly or safely charge a Lithium-Ion type battery.

Don't get suckered into thinking a Lithium-Ion battery will safely work in a Bigdog MC.

There are other posts on this forum and web information warning against using a Lithium battery in conventional AGM/Lead Acid battery charging systems...search and read them.

Drag bikes can use these Lithium-Ion type batteries because they don't run charging systems.

If anyone claims a Lithium-Ion battery will properly charge and be safe in a Bigdog, they are incorrect.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/02/02/lithium-ion-polymer-motorcycle-batteries/
"The potential for problems in terms of the charging circuitry is a bit worrisome (overcharging or incorrectly charging could mean hydrogen evolution or lithium zero instead of lithium ion which gets explosive with any moisture)."

 

[cvegmond]

Lithium Batteries

Not silly at all. You just explained why: "This battery needs to be a proper application of the technology as it is in lithium-ion batteries for electric cars and motorcycles"

The charging systems on the Bigdog MC do not nor will not properly or safely charge a Lithium type battery.

Don't get suckered into thinking a Lithium battery will safely work in a Bigdog MC.

There are other posts on this forum and web information warning against using a Lithium battery in conventional AGM/Lead Acid battery charging systems...search and read them.

Drag bikes can use these Lithium type batteries because they don't run charging systems.

If anyone claims a Lithium battery will properly charge and be safe in a Bigdog, they are incorrect.

You mention "safe" a couple of times, yet no-one has had any safety issues with Shorai or Braille lithium batteries in motorcyces. I have looked far and wide on the internet to validate your claim.

From what I read at this forum and externally is that lithium batteries "work". That there are no deliterious effects on the motorcycle's electrical system. There have been no documented safety issues with lithium batteries in Hondas, Big Dogs or anything else. I haven't read anyone on this forum saying "incorrect" things.

I see this as a cost/benfit analysis. Is one lithium battery at $252 that much better than a lead acid or AGM battery for $90?

Have you tried a lithium battery in a motorcycle?

Thanks, Cor.

 

[cvegmond]

I have one in my CBR1000RR. I like it, small and light. I bought a braille when my battery died finally but I don't think it's any better than the old big dog one. The lithium ones are great, they just can be fickle about charging systems.

Braille makes many different kinds of batteries. All of them have a focus on light weight and racing. The B2015 - Braille No-Weight 12 Volt Battery, 425 CCA that many forum members rave about is an AGM battery.

Braille does make a lithium battery that would fit a Big Dog battery box. Their ML20C is a bit smaller and is lithium. The B2015 is half the price of the ML20C.

"Fickle about charging systems"? The cat is fickle about what food he's given. How does a battery behave "fickle"...doesn't it like the electrons it's fed? Please explain...

Thanks, Cor.

 

[PROFLYER]

How you bridge cat food and a battery is beyond me.

I've been around long enough to see where this is going: guy asks a question on a forum looking for SUPPORTING responses. Doesn't get full support, argues with people who respond and know better....does it anyway....outcome is a coin toss.

Call any of the manufacturers and they'll tell you the Li batteries work BEST with the proper charging system (theirs, standalone). Our dogs are not that robust and require a lot of the battery. Hell the starter alone is to the same specs as a small diesel motor starter.

But do whatever you want man, we'll sign you off solo, let us know how it goes?

 

[migai082681]

I have a Braille battery and it works fine. Have had it about 5 months now no problem. Work 10x better than the acid batterys

 

[Th3InfamousI]

I really haven't researched this enough. So I haven't figured out what kind of charging system is "ideal" for these type of batteries. I did reach out to the vendor for some additional information. Figured I would share what I have so far.

Questions / Comment : I am curious if there are any special requirements for use of your batteries in a motorcycle application. My understanding is that Lithium batteries requiring a different style charging system over standard AGM Glass Mat batteries. However I d not see any details stating such on your website.

Do you have any further information and testing on using lithium batteries with a conventional motorcycle charging system?

______________________________________________


From: "Shawn Ovens" <salestech@shorai.org>
Date: Oct 5, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Shorai Contact request
To: Eric,

There are no special requirements. The motorcycle charges our battery the exact same way as a lead acid or AGM. Standard chargers such as a Battery Tender can be used to charge the battery back to full charge if it ever gets low from lack of use. If your bike has a digital clock or any other equipment that creates a small draw while the bike is not being used and you plan to not ride for an extended period of time (over a month) you may need a charger for storage. That is the only situation that the Shorai lithium battery requires anything different for. Lead acid and AGM hold their capacity fro 12 to 14 volts, most all of the Shorai's capacity is held in a higher more usable range above 13 volts. For this reason you would want to use the Shorai charger if you plan to not ride the bike for extended periods so it stay at proper voltage.

Let me know if you have more questions,

 

[cvegmond]

To Eric,
Thanks for contacting Shorai on the charging system question.

To Proflyer,
Fortunately, the lithium battery should not be fickle and will function as other batteries do in the Big Dogs. I come seeking knowledge. I was not disagreeing with you, I needed to explain your response.

To Anyone,
Since there is no technical issue with Lithium Batteries, we are left with economic issues. Is a lithium battery worth twice the cost of lead-acid or AGM batteries?

Thank Cor.
Since there are no technical

 

[francoblay1]

Anyone has been using any of these Lithium-Ion Batteries? Any feed-back?

 

[grizfish]

Not trying to create more confusion about Lithium Batteries, but my personal experience with early, pre-consumer Li batteries could give you another perspective about safety and internal shorting.

Dawgboy's statement about his bud's experience is relevant: "Battery (Li) had an internal short."

About 1978 I was designing a power supply circuit. This was part of a digital communication device that connected to ANPRC-25 radios for forward observers to call in artillery missions. We were given some recently developed Li batteries and instructed not to short the leads because there was an internal safety fuse that would 'blow' rendering the battery useless. Also told that without the fuse the battery would blow up if shorted. Basically, these early Li batteries were capable of providing enough current to overheat uncontrollably.

I don't know specifics about how manufacturers control the output current to make them safe for consumers, but Dawgboy's statement makes sense to me.

 

[Viking]

I look forward to see more post from guys who has actually used it over time. As for me, it sits too close to the family jewels for me to be the test monkey. I have it in my power tools and with that I am very very impressed about its performance. Keep us updated about its long term performance....:2thumbs:

 

[Jerseykat1]

i have successfully and reliably used a lithium ion shoria battery (says it right on the box that it works with conventional charging systems) in my high compression sportster (86 sportster with the shity charging system - cured my problems) and it worked great, it cured my problem of having a dead battery every few weeks because the early evo sportsters had shity charging systems, even when working properly.. Its charging range is the normal charging system range 13.5-14.9 volts (says so in the liturature it comes with).. They are designed for automototive and MC duties so im sure there is ciurcuitry inside to prevent overcharging and such.. most likely why they are kinda of expensive.

 

[Nukeranger]

I have a Shorai and a special charger for it and only use it for my Hog Cooler vest to circulate ice cold water during the summer to keep me cool. I may try it in my Daytona 675 when the battery gives out only as an experiment but never the Big Dog.

 

[prairiehorse]

I have used the Braille and it was awesome! I have just gotten a lithium... i was pissed the first time it turned it over as it just stuttered like a dead battery. Did research and found Jersey Big Mike's post regarding the multiple tries on the starter....it works like he says. I have read many of the posts regarding the charging system requirements/ battery requirements etc... has anyone actually called the battery company and asked why this happens? It si almost like the lithium has to spool up in oder to spin the BD starter, but once it is ready she really fires. I will update later this year on how it goes. Anyone who has knowledge of why it takes the 3 shots b4 it fires the bike plz post.

 

[cvegmond]

Anyone who has knowledge of why it takes the 3 shots b4 it fires the bike plz post.

I think the 3 hits to fire the bike is an engine thing and not a battery thing.

The logic is that the starter hits moves the engine past the compression stroke. Once bumped past the compression stroke the starter motor is able to generate enough momentum to throw the engine past the compression stroke, finally suck in some air and fuel and the start the combustion process.

Even "regular" batteries are up to this multiple hit starting routine.

The compression release valves are supposed to help the starter and battery overcome the compression stroke during start-up.

I'm wondering if most of the starting issues are really compression release valve related? Next time I ride the K-9, I'll hold down the rear compression release and see if it starts any easier.

Thanks, Cor.

 

[woodbutcher]

I have used the Braille and it was awesome! I have just gotten a lithium... i was pissed the first time it turned it over as it just stuttered like a dead battery. Did research and found Jersey Big Mike's post regarding the multiple tries on the starter....it works like he says. I have read many of the posts regarding the charging system requirements/ battery requirements etc... has anyone actually called the battery company and asked why this happens? It si almost like the lithium has to spool up in oder to spin the BD starter, but once it is ready she really fires. I will update later this year on how it goes. Anyone who has knowledge of why it takes the 3 shots b4 it fires the bike plz post.

when it comes to lithium batteries, i know a whole lot less the the next guy, but in my reading, it is said that the lithium and the big dog charging system do not like each other, even to the point of causing the battery to catch fire.
PLEASE, use caution.

 

[Viking]

So, is there a market for Lithium batteries combined with a charging system and a starter that can handle it?

If one can make the performance as superior as it is in battery tools I would dare to say there is a market for it. Personally, the old system has worked just great for me but I would be willing to listen to the first vendor that offers a complete system for our dogs.