electrical--lights on--key off

[MKTLAWYER]

I recently replaced my starter (again) and in doing so I broke the speedo plug wires. Have replaced that now as well (and new exhaust) and I had to replace the circuit breaker fuse under the seat that is green and looks like a blade fuse a (green 30amp). It already has replaced "circuit breaker" see here https://www.ebay.com/p/Big-Dog-Circ...Pitbull-BDM/1923577546?iid=123782429576&rt=nc so I'm not sure the green circuit breaker should even be there but it will not get juice to start without it plugged in. Once plugged in, the headlight goes on and stays on with or without the key in ignition. Any ideas on what could be wrong and making headlight stay on or if the circuit breaker even belongs there? Replaced BDM EHC with Dead One ESC a year or so ago and all has been wonderful electrically until now. Thanks in advance!

 

[bdm7250]

Pop your headlight out and see if you're grounding out in the bucket, if not the problem may be under the tank. (Chaffed wire I would suspect)

 

[MKTLAWYER]

Thank you! So if I understand, if the headlight is grounding out somewhere (anywhere), it will cause the light to stay on. Correct? Not like a typical short which in my mind would cause it to not work. Meaning it is a normally open circuit.

 

[Sven]

Not familiar with this bike bike to say it has a relay/starter/headlight design,but they use a relay for most headlights these days. In other words, the h/l draws a lot of current out of the battery if key was on and light came on as well. The trend was then to use a relay so when the bike started, the h/l was off for startup. But when the bike started, the relay would then magnetically hold the points so the wire of the h/l would now be on when running.

Say this bike comes with another relay besides the starter motor's relay. The points might be sticking closed/lost spring tension so no open circuit occurs/welded points to the h/l prong inside of the relay so the lights stay one when key is off. Can't be a short or the fuse would blow. Could be enough resistance [bdm's diagnosis] so no fuse blows, but has the headlight as a resistor so no fuse would blow this way either.

 

[awg]

And there you go!

 

[MKTLAWYER]

Not familiar with this bike bike to say it has a relay/starter/headlight design,but they use a relay for most headlights these days. In other words, the h/l draws a lot of current out of the battery if key was on and light came on as well. The trend was then to use a relay so when the bike started, the h/l was off for startup. But when the bike started, the relay would then magnetically hold the points so the wire of the h/l would now be on when running.

Say this bike comes with another relay besides the starter motor's relay. The points might be sticking closed/lost spring tension so no open circuit occurs/welded points to the h/l prong inside of the relay so the lights stay one when key is off. Can't be a short or the fuse would blow. Could be enough resistance [bdm's diagnosis] so no fuse blows, but has the headlight as a resistor so no fuse would blow this way either.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. If I understand, check for a headlight relay and see if it is working?

 

[Mr. Wright]

There is no headlight relay you can check. The problem is, if you have a short in a wire somewhere, it will cause all sorts of strange things. If you're still using the H4 headlight bulb, it causes a lot of heat and will melt the wires in the bucket. It's just a good place to start.

 

[MKTLAWYER]

Thank you for all your help and posts! I pulled headlight (have ceramic plug already) and checked it’s wires all the way (tank is off) to brain plug under seat. No shorts. Where should I look next? Would a short in any light’s wire potentially cause headlight to stay on or just headlight wire? I have an led light and there doesn’t appear to be anything wrong with it but the little black box it connects to in headlight bucket may be a little worn from possibly rubbing inside bucket but does not look major. But after all, headlight still works obviously. Ash colored dust in the bucket, not a lot, but some . . . Could short on any wire anywhere potentially cause headlight to stay on? If so, this will be a nightmare to figure out.

 

[MKTLAWYER]

It's been almost a year since I first posted this and my bike is still not fixed. Had it in a shop for four months (6+ months of winter) and then had to take it back from them because they obviously did not know what they were doing and had essentially stopped working on it. Now my new starter won't work and the headlight still turns on even with the key off once the fuse is in. I have visually inspected 85-90% of wiring (other 10-15% will entail stripping heat shrink off all plug connections). Before I go any further I just wanted to reactivate this post and see if anyone has any other advice. It seems like I am getting further away from it being fixed and I have no solid plan to figure this out other than replacing each wire one at a time, which does not seem like the right thing to do . . .Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

[SKOGDOG]

I put a D O C’s EHC in my EFI 2010 Bulldog Bagger a couple of years ago and the only ‘eccentricity’ encountered was when using the kill switch to shut off the engine, a couple of warning lights would stay on. The fix: Only use the key to turn off the engine. Anytime the kill switch is used to shut down, the warning lights (not headlights) come on and I have to turn the key, hit run, and then turn off the key—and it’s back to normal.
Plan ‘B’,—call Jeff Moore (D O C) at Dead One Customs. He can be a bit grumpy but is an EE who built that EHC and is dedicated to customer support.
Sorry to have no comment or idea on the starter issue—very frustrating to not have competent mechanics for our Big Dogs. Have you communicated with Fury Cycles in St. Paul? They have historically handled Big Dogs.

 

[Mikeinjersey]

It's been almost a year since I first posted this and my bike is still not fixed. Had it in a shop for four months (6+ months of winter) and then had to take it back from them because they obviously did not know what they were doing and had essentially stopped working on it. Now my new starter won't work and the headlight still turns on even with the key off once the fuse is in. I have visually inspected 85-90% of wiring (other 10-15% will entail stripping heat shrink off all plug connections). Before I go any further I just wanted to reactivate this post and see if anyone has any other advice. It seems like I am getting further away from it being fixed and I have no solid plan to figure this out other than replacing each wire one at a time, which does not seem like the right thing to do . . .Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Just to verify you have and 06-K9 ?
I read your earlier posts and looked up deadonecustoms ESC. It does mention it comes with NEW One Piece, "UPGRADED" Headlight Harness included, w/ Ceramic Headlight Connector! Maybe it's not so upgraded and decided to cause you a problem. I would check that harness and connector real close. Also give Dead One a call, they may have some advice.
Did all this start when the speedometer plug wire got damaged? If you had power on the bike when it broke you may have damaged the ESC.
When the key is off the only issue is the headlamp is on right? No other symptoms with the key off? Like ignition power or speedometer power? If you disconnect (unplug) the ignition switch does the headlight still come on?
If you disconnect the headlight does the bike run with no other issues?
Does the ESC have fault lights like the EHC. If so are any lit ?
Your starter is probably OK since it's new and hasn't been used. My guess is your battery is shot or at least weak from non use and your headlight problem draining it. Charge and test the battery before screwing with the starter.
I know this is a bunch of questions but if you take the time and answer them it will help me or someone else on the site try to figure out you problem.

 

[MKTLAWYER]

Thanks for your comment. I'll call DOC. Fury is next on my list to call after all other options are exhausted.

 

[MKTLAWYER]

Thanks for all the ideas and avenues to pursue, Mikeinjersy. Yes, an '06 K9. Here's why my reply has been delayed. I called DOC and then sent my ESC in for testing. Jeff Moore is great and had me mail it in to his shop. Like the 4000 or so other ESCs they've made and sold, it was working as it should, not fried and no faults found.

While the ESC was being tested I pulled my starter and took it apart to rebuild the solenoid. Once apart, I saw that the brush holder for the starter motor was all rusty and fried looking. It looked like water got in there and caused a short. I swapped out the starter motor with a spare I had and bench tested the starter before installing it. It worked. Once installed, the headlight no longer came on when the key was off!! Success--sort of.

I could only get it to start once when I jump started it. And damn did it sound good and strong! So now I've had the starter (or more like a combination of starters) in and out four or five times. Had to solder that damn small connector on three different times alone. At first it would just make that whirring sound. Then it would just make a clunk sound. Now it whirrrs then clicks.

Any more ideas at solving this? Could it be that it is not properly shimmed? Where do the shims go? How do you measure to determine the shim size? Battery is strong and only has about a half a season on it. All connections are clean and tight. Any help or ideas from anyone on what to try next will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all your comments so far. Getting closer . . . .

 

[Mikeinjersey]

Thanks for all the ideas and avenues to pursue, Mikeinjersy. Yes, an '06 K9. Here's why my reply has been delayed. I called DOC and then sent my ESC in for testing. Jeff Moore is great and had me mail it in to his shop. Like the 4000 or so other ESCs they've made and sold, it was working as it should, not fried and no faults found.

While the ESC was being tested I pulled my starter and took it apart to rebuild the solenoid. Once apart, I saw that the brush holder for the starter motor was all rusty and fried looking. It looked like water got in there and caused a short. I swapped out the starter motor with a spare I had and bench tested the starter before installing it. It worked. Once installed, the headlight no longer came on when the key was off!! Success--sort of.

I could only get it to start once when I jump started it. And damn did it sound good and strong! So now I've had the starter (or more like a combination of starters) in and out four or five times. Had to solder that damn small connector on three different times alone. At first it would just make that whirring sound. Then it would just make a clunk sound. Now it whirrrs then clicks.

Any more ideas at solving this? Could it be that it is not properly shimmed? Where do the shims go? How do you measure to determine the shim size? Battery is strong and only has about a half a season on it. All connections are clean and tight. Any help or ideas from anyone on what to try next will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all your comments so far. Getting closer . . . .

Glad you had some success! I'm not sure what shims you are speaking of. The starter should just be pushed into the back of the primary housing and 2 bolts hold it in. There is a locator hole on the starter so you really can't screw it up. Inside the starter is a one way clutch (starter drive clutch) which will give you the symptom your describing. The whirr you are hearing is the starter motor turning but not turning the starter gear. Pull the end off the starter and check the gears. If the gears are not broken it's likely the drive clutch is not working properly. The next time you bench test the starter make sure the starter gear turns and pushes out to engage.
I thought you started out with a new starter in your first post. You probably have the parts you need from your old starters laying around. Do a little frankenstien work and I'm sure you will get it fixed.
I'll look forward to your next update.

 

[MKTLAWYER]

I did some Frankenstein work and have a different combination of starter parts in my bike but it still will not come alive. I am still having the same problem. When I hit start the starter just rapidly clicks but will not engage. The only way it will engage and start is if I jump start it. That must mean the increased power going to the starter somehow makes it work. My battery checks out at 14.6 volts or so. I guess this narrows it down to a poor connection somewhere??? Or a switch? Or its gonna snow before I figure this out . . . .

 

[Twincam8888]

"When I hit start the starter just rapidly clicks but will not engage " This means the starter is not getting enough "juice". ...Also if your battery shows 14.6 volts you should check with another voltmeter as this reading is too high.

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

I could see 14.6v running, which even then would be on the high side of what your Voltage regulator is designed to put out, but a battery just sitting there motor not running should only read 12.8v. Put a new battery in the meter first and foremost, then check it to something that never changes like a receptacle in your house. once you know its reading correctly, hold the leads for the meter on the battery while trying to crank the bike. If the Battery voltage drops below 10.5 volts, that is why you're not starting. These bikes require so many volts and amps to crank these bikes, if you drop below 10.5 or so, its almost impossible to start them. when you jump the bike off, are you using a jump box or a car that is running, cause just a hint if the car is running, that is a big no no, its been known that it will mess up the electrical system, now that may have been just with the factory ECH systems, but I honestly cant remember. But check the voltage drop as you try starting the bike, check your meter against a known none changing voltage, and lets figure out whats going on with this bike.

 

[Mikeinjersey]

I did some Frankenstein work and have a different combination of starter parts in my bike but it still will not come alive. I am still having the same problem. When I hit start the starter just rapidly clicks but will not engage. The only way it will engage and start is if I jump start it. That must mean the increased power going to the starter somehow makes it work. My battery checks out at 14.6 volts or so. I guess this narrows it down to a poor connection somewhere??? Or a switch? Or its gonna snow before I figure this out . . . .

Key off should read 12.8vdc and running high 13vdc but no more than 14.5vdc. Have your battery load tested. I have to assume the bike was running when you got the 14.6 reading so the charge system may be OK but on the max output. My guess is that with the key off your battery voltage is way under the 12.8 vdc required to operate the bike. The good news is this started with your headlight staying on with the key off. You fixed that !! Then the starter rebuild !! ESC tested and good!! All have the battery in common. Maybe the battery got damaged during the process or it caused it all with an internal short. Just in case the charge system is putting out too much current disconnect the VR when you first get the battery back tested or new. If all runs well Plug it back in and start the bike again to read the battery voltage to make sure it's not over or under charging.

 

[TXBocefus]

Was there a resolution to this issue? I’m experiencing something very similar on my ‘10 Mastiff. TIA!

 

[HMAN]

Was there a resolution to this issue? I’m experiencing something very similar on my ‘10 Mastiff. TIA!

Start a new thread with Your symptoms. The OG poster hasnt been here since July of 2020 and welcome from Kansas!