EFI: Thelixiripoff Explained 101.1

Energy One

BadBrad

2005 Pitbull
If I could just understand what he's talking about, I'm sure I would appreciate it more. From his last post, I do see that he has a sense of humor. Hell, I guess anyone that gets married must have a sense of humor in some way or another. That I understand~!! Life would be shitty without it. For Sven to admit that even his wife doesn't understand him at least makes him humble in some respect. Even Oscer's explanation of what a seat gap is, I understand, but for Sven to give a definition of a seat gap, I'm sure I wouldn't have a clue with all the similies and metaphors he throws in. Hang in there Sven. The day will come when I understand what you're talking about and when that happens, it's sure to scare the hell out of you.
 

BadBrad

2005 Pitbull
I just had a brain fart!!!! Mike, since you do seem to understand Sven more so than the rest of us, why don't you interpret what he's really saying? Hell, if you can do that, you can add bilingual to your resume. Obviously, it's way over my head. At times, a grasshopper's ankle is way over my head.
 

Nukeranger

Nukeranger
Sven,

How's that bike build coming? It should be done with all the time you have to spend on here giving advice!

:roll::roll::roll:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
Sven,

How's that bike build coming? It should be done with all the time you have to spend on here giving advice!

:roll::roll::roll:

:hi: Hey, Knuker!
Funny you should ask? 'OL Shovelicious is wire harness has no spark. Why, it was just last Monday, we oil primed her down the street a little. Set her back on the rack. Tie the battery down in place. Go to check spark. And here we are. :2thumbs: More fun learning electrics the hard way. The guy is in no rush. And forget about using any more parts off of bulletproof. That puppy is spot on. I'm using the spark box and coil off of her as it is. So I know it is one of two things; My wiring or the used ignition plate?







Yeah, I'll get 1/4-Kick to spark later today. :cheers:
 

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
You know what is scary, I can understand most of what he says (after I cut through the anecdotes of the language).

That said, he has some very detail information in there, not sure how much good it is for the normal owner, but there is some good stuff in there for sure.

I actually enjoy reading it to some degree.

Of Sven, I do know who Ross Collins is and had the pleasure seeing him race more than once back in the 70's at Beech Bend in KY and also down at the Old Palm Beach Dragway in South Florida. He was something else and is a legend.

Sven

Maybe one day we can ride with Bad Brad, enjoy a beer and then me and you can discuss old time FI such a Hillborn and stuff that don't need all the sensor and upper electronic PFM stuff (pure Fucking Magic) and more just proper timing, pressure and orfices (Well a little bit more). Then drink a shot to pay proper respect to Philp Smith also.

Still, after cutting through the interesting writing, there is some good stuff in there. Then again I am a little strange myself as well as being an engineer!
 

BadBrad

2005 Pitbull
I can enjoy a beer with anyone!!!! Maybe we can talk about scavenger pumps, rocker boxes, clutch baskets, EHC's, main shafts, worn dogs in the tranny and anything else that has ever broken on my bike. That's the shit I know about.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Snake!

Shots to someone named, Smokey Yunick, if we are celebrating a turn of a screw, LOL. He sponsored so many drivers, he could tell when to throw them out of his race cars. He coined his own term, 'seat gap,' is when the guy hugs the steering wheel and is not comfortable racing anymore. He's scared shit! Smokey being sponsored by Pontiac at the time, told Fireball Roberts to take the car he was in and go racing on his own. I think Fireball crashed and burned in that car?... Like 5 days later in the hospital that is.


By now, something should have sunk in? You are watching the evolution of the bike's ignition systems. There are the:

1. Points: Open and close with an arm = Mechanical ~ Wear factor? Pivots and divots. Or, your arm at the elbow wearing out and your arc at the points. Every time it sparked, a tiny piece of metal was burned off as if it almost welded or melted itself together.

2. Advancer: The springs would collapse. The arms would elongate the holes = Mechanical; about to leave with the points soon. This is the linear move. Call the collapsed spring the bad resistor inside the sensor, the spring is out of spec. Right?

3. The Window: As the points are eliminated, the mechanical advance is still running the in back, moving linear. This is to match crank speed. Crank runs linear. It moves in steps of time is speed (rpm). So, the springs keep that linear move all smooth up and down the ignition curve. The cup with the cut comes in. There is your magnetic break or your On/Off switch. Make it act like the set of points and collapse the coil to ground to make the spark. Now, duplicated it; which sends the points to Obsoletesville.

If you think about it, here is this sporty twitch with the VOES removed. Guess who is the advancer? Pull on the VOES' diaphragm, this sets the liner as if the spring advancer was reversed engineered. Connect the dots, so vacuum on the linear is a spring without lag or twitch.

Now, the mechanical advance is out with the set of points. 14.7 is the absolute playbook. This is basic computer bike theory. You are going to reverse the engineering I bring you up to a modern bike. We move backwards, forwards, we don't care where we start; we will understand any bike we own. Past, present or future. :whoop: The loop is forever.

If the springs are pulling the advancer in on the weights, it says it runs the timing up the rpm, all in a linear, matching balance. If the springs collapse some, there is a faster flip out; that the springs could once resist. The twitch is INN! Meaning, the run up to the tighter springs. Make sense?

The guy that wants to take a gun to the computer bike, he is all spring sag = Twitchy ride. Rusted weights not at full extension. All that lost power, turns into robbing power.

Then, we think; VOES hose removed. We are going to make it act like we are about to install a timing plate after we assemble the engine. We center the plate and begin to base-tune the plate. This is like saying, I'm going to see if my weights are at full swing without the springs. My box has "backup." I install my hose is like saying, I install the springs. Make sense so far?

VOES = Variable Operating Electrical Switch. The electrical advancer. To troubleshoot the VOES, see if it holds a vacuum by using an ohm meter to read the output signals. Your eyes are not quick enough to see each number run up in scale. The electrics can read this and compute things out.

When you have that VOES out of the loop, this is more of a twitchy ride. What happened when VOES dropped out of the loop? What happens if a computer bike's vacuum sensor fails? What action is taken.


MAF = Your car's 'mass air flow,' has the same number as the VOES, we turn the key fob.
IAP = Intake air pressure. No matter the vacuum, it fob the 1 atm.

Can we agree, no matter how you use those letters, they take the same read of the ultimate number when the spark box reads that input? There is no other number. Every part is built off that number. Every sensor is handcuffed to that number.

We have yet to see what happens if the VOES falls out of the loop.

Do not look the fool you do not think over and over the 1ATMO answers all questions and then some. That is you mental shop tool. You are lost being the MORE AIRazz'inn you be get'inn!
 

Nukeranger

Nukeranger
Sven,

You are killing me. Although somewhat entertaining, is English you second language so I can cut you a break? At this point, I would welcome someone from Mexico writing/talking to me. I wonder if Google can translate for me. What is a Knuker? :confused:

Who is we? You make it sound like you have a side kick working with you. Poor Bastard! You have no spark but the bike is spot on. WTF? Spot on is a British word and I was born in London before you ask.

I am not even sure why I even responded.::loony:

Nukeranger
 

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
BadBrad,

I am sure it would be a pleasure

Sven-Smokey Yunick, the genius with the old worn cowboy hat!!!!
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
Sven,

You are killing me. Although somewhat entertaining, is English you second language so I can cut you a break?
Since you mentioned it, yes I do speak english, seen your. Seen your Lucas go out at night? Would you like to add to your collection?


I am not even sure why I even responded.::loony:
For the entertainment? :whoop:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
You know what is scary, I can understand most of what he says (after I cut through the anecdotes of the language).

That said, he has some very detail information in there, not sure how much good it is for the normal owner, but there is some good stuff in there for sure.

I actually enjoy reading it to some degree.
What I enjoy is to hear others run from the, 'how do you wave,' thread, then come to some tech thread and tell me to let the 'professionals' take care of it.
:D

WATT I am hiding in the anecdote IS: I look like I don't know what I'm talking about. But, buy the time you read my book, 'he asked some very detail info' those hand wavers do not understand :roll:

1. I need over 145 piss'inn in year eye.
2. Every stinking part on that bike runs in the absolute. It is a bunch of parts that all bleed; fuel=parts=COMPRESSION!
3. This is the waving gayamigo :hi:. Dis ear is the pen I pen the ultimate question.
4. Chase your fucking tail = Are the other 2 amigos you chase with a pin thru your nose. It has a chain on the end of it, and 1 variable is bringing you to the donkey. Take that prick and stick it right up dare. I don't give a flying shit! :roll: :up:
5. Your bike, your problems. :modownz:
6. How do DIS english work for you now? Pretty much, brutally honest?
7. You see the detail... And there is not a thing I can do for you hand waVEERS.
8. yOU HAVE THIS WHOLE FORUM, I hardly post but techshit. Then, I have to hear yourshit. Well then, is it my fault I said check compression, I detailed it as little as the info is coming from the OP, once again.
9. YOu are the pro's in the nose. Last thread I entered, I put the reins on the more fuel guys, as opposed to...
10. The horse is ass sort of showed you some bullshit Variable close on the retard ignition, retard 3 pages in. Dealing with the 'pro's' ass you say.

Dude(s), I don't needishit. Your wallets are your sucker folds. Unfold and hand over your hard earned moan knee, (those that have jobs). Dis thread is all about (alleged) fraud. Well, not how the law sees it. No problem there.

You will in the future. There are so many (frauD'uh) parts for sale. Where ass, in my eyes, those pro's are more clueless are the ones I meet. The more air motherfuckers. :lol:
 

Th3InfamousI

Administrator
Staff member
Since you mentioned it, yes I do speak english, seen your. Seen your Lucas go out at night?
You may speak it but I think he was asking if it was your first language. It seems like you might be using some kind of online translator? "seen your" I assume you wanted to say "Senor"? As a slight to him calling you Spanish? Am I right?

And you always type "WATT" which is spelled "What", unless your doing that on purpose. However for what purpose I don't follow.

I'm not arguing with your knowledge, I don't know as much as you do about this subject so I will not comment. I do not understand all of what you wrote, it's just in your own unique form. I feel if it was delivered in a more readable format I think more people would understand what you are talking about.

Good Luck :hi:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
No matter how I spell it out, it runs in the absolute. This is high tech, you don't need to go here. This is for someone keen on FI, and wants to learn more. More surface speak. More of the fundamental moves.

The watt is for demonstration purposes as are the other key wordings. Some are confused because of basic science. But when applied, it makes total sense.

If the old lady cannot understand me, we finally wind up on the same page eventually. I just have to wait for her to get there. It's like the same here. I haVe to wait till you find we are on the same page.

WATT I discuss, and WHAT you discuss vs. Wires:

Watts = That is a light bulb.
Amps = That is a stator.
Volts = That is a battery.

You can stop right here and the next post will be more of the same; 3-Fundamental moves to tuning/repair/diagnose. I don't give a rip watt direction. Did you notice, 'watt' + direction? Do we know the difference?

Do we have house current off the crank? Yes. WATT do you call it, never mind, hits here in the sentence. That hit home yet? Under under, underground. Dis is more MMI (missed most instructions). What do I look like? One of their instructors? They don't even know watt I'm talking about. That is how underground this is.

Read the title of this thread. I can flat out tell you who has watt, but I am not going to. You will recognize it using this abstract. It is the only way to get there. Read over and over to see the concepts or bail. Or stick around and rant all you want. You become the entertainment.

Some understand, others don't. If you are a 'Don't'; If your are a, 'MORE AIR' kind of?; If you 'Bring In Another Number' other than what you breath in and out is a vacuum and suck, bring it:

Low pressure = From a straw, suck in some air. Either suck up some beverage or breath in. What is the pressure?

No pressure = I have to pen this over and over and it never sinks in no matter the combination. This is the key fob number. The number in the exhaust pipe. The number when you stop breathing and now, what is that number? No, could it?

Hi pressure = I'm waving in the air. :hi: Is that pressure? I blew out the candle. I wish I could make up one of those; the matches are home, but someone is still rubbing his hands in the other post. Wait up for him. :roll:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
What happens when the vacuum is lost at the VOES?

1. There is the 1Atmo method that is the X factor.
2. There is the crank speed is the Y factor.
3. There is the backup plan in the advance curve.

We've already established moving the timing plate to center is how you start the bike. That is the same thing as saying, I'm going to set the gap on the points first> before I time it. With the points having the mechanical advance parts failing, watt about the spark box, electrically?

The VOES with its continued pull on this silicone wafer: Shows a pull of one readout (1- Curve) under load. This is the high performance/best overall drive-ability curve. Under no pull from the VOES, remember the computer takes precautions (0- Curve); to save the engine [?how?].



Time = Crank speed ~ RPM
Alpha = 14.7 ~ Numeric ~ a/N
Method = Limp/backup/fail-safe.

This is the beginning of the limp loop. How does it calc if the analog is missing?

This how the wafer becomes the jobber. The wire in-wire out is the data. To recap how to diagnose a vacuum switch down to the box:

1. I can hold vacuum.
2. I show data at the ohm meter under vacuum ~ Wire in - Wire out.
3. I have a spark box that still sparks a curve without VOES.

That says, I have one curve, one to go. It means:

Setting the ignition plate in the middle without the VOES in place is in limp mode. You want the better advance curve for easier starts, better economy. That is how you get the VOES to maintain that condition under said vacuum at the jobber. Install VOES so you time for the linear moves, or the analog moves.

For example, for argument sake, say the range is 10° - 55° advance.
For example, both backup and VOES start at 10°.
For example, both full advance curves end at their full 55°.
However, under fail-safe, a fast idle will be at the full 55°.
However, under VOES, a fast idle will have the other, less faster curve. This will be pegged at 40°.

I lost a signal at the wafer. Why did you remove VOES?; Are 2 variables. You now run in the limp curve. It runs a faster advance. Range is a safe 40° at fast idle with that wafer being pulled on. Without VOES, you limp to full knock and ping.

Make sense about 2 curves in the box? That is just one sensor. The grandfathered in sensor. One is a backup, the other is the stock, (no code- think computer bike now) curve? Curve and ignition map mean the same thing. Don't bring in a fuel map, or you'll confuse yourself as it is.

Make sense about you watching how the ignition's evolution took hold of your move? Took care of your fuel move too. You now need a 12 year old kid with a laptop to curve your fuel.

Either enter the digital world or you'll be phased out like analog TV!

:flag:
 

Fibersnake

Banjo Playing PsychoBilly
Ok this is what I am making out of this and I am sure Sven will correct me if I real far off.

He is going through the basic of EFI, starting with the basic of the internal combustion process.

He talks about the pressure starting with atmospheric 14.7 psi nominal, goes into how the lower displacement of the cylinder (down stroke or intake) will pull in the air through the intake and how that air gets mixed in properly with the fuel.

If you have air, fuel and a source of ignition (spark) or if you are talking diesel (heat from compression), you will have fire. Now the key is to have that fire in the most efficient form, thus the proper air-fuel ratio.

Since the engine operates at different speeds as well as in different environments, the A/F ration varies. Be it from less barometric pressure (or more) or as the engine speeds varies. Since there is a time factor for the fuel to ignite and give complete combustion, due to cylinder speed, the start of the ignition has to be right for most efficient power.

Due to the gas laws, as well as various other factors such as the flame front, burn time, etc, the timing needs to vary.

On the old fashion Point systems, this was accomplished using advance be it from vacuum or centrifugal weights or combination of both. Anyone that every messed with the old Mallory Dual Points distributors and made all the little adjustment for ignition curves can understand such.

With the EFI, all this is still being taken into account, but uses sensor and electronic for the most part to accomplish the same thing.

Bottom line the sensor provide information to the ECM (or whatever controls the ignition and fuel injectors) to insure that the fuel is injected at the right time and the spark is fired at the right time to make it all come together for the most efficient burn for the condition at that time.

The sensor sense various information be it pressure, o2 level, rpm, etc and converts all to electronic signals which are analyzed and then proper electronics signals are sent to the FI and the Spark to make it happen right.

Much of the information he is provided is detail on how the sensor operated and feed info in and out of the ECM to get the proper timing and fuel ratio. Since a good portion of this involves sensor and those sensor send electronic information, it appears that he is getting in to the detail of such. This would involve the various milliamps/voltage and what signals are being sensed.

Good stuff IMHO but much more detail that the typical owner is familiar with or would want to know. That said, knowing such and having a basic idea of how all this comes together and is used to insure that the spark ignites the proper fuel ratio at the right time and adjust these as things change can help one troubleshoot the EFI. Basically something at ideal require a much different timing than something at say 5000 rpm as well as change of fuel amounts due to amount of air from various situation.

With a carb, things are pretty simple, the air gets pulled through the venturi of the carb, the fuel gets suck into that air stream, gets mixed and get ignited. Since it is based on gas laws and physic, we try to meet the idea situation through the use of jets (to have close to proper a/f ration) to correlate with the air flow. Since the air/flow will vary depending on not only the crank speed, but also atmosphere (thus the need to re-jet at higher elevation or lower), but also the intake design as well as the exhaust. The exhaust plays a big part due to the gas flowing out of the cylinder and having some overlap with the intake and due to the gas laws, the better the exhaust can scavenge the cylinder, the better fresh air can fill the cylinder, not only in quality, but quantity too. Still all these are fixed and try to get the idea middle ground for the most part. The only item that is variable is the spark which can be changed via advance curves (well on some carb like the old predator, it did adjust more for the a/f than say a Holley Dominator).

With EFI all these variable are changing more and are based on real time information from various sensor. Much more accurate when right as well as efficient and more variable for the situation, thus in some the ability to learn and adjust for the engine and conditions. Knowing how it all works and what the various sensors do, and how they work, and how such information is used to make the needed adjustment, can go a long way to troubleshooting as well as make the proper set up.

One thing I will throw in, many people use a dyno to tune, but as S&S states along with other, if you are going to do a complete tune on EFI with dyno, it should be a step type (i.e. brake dyno) and not the sweep type (i.e inertia such as the typical Dynojet). With a good step dyno run, a good knowledge of what is what and good programming, one can bring the run up in steps, make the adjustment for each and get a much better mapping, verse a quick sweep that does not provide the details one would want for good mapping.

So for me, as I said before, his information is very detailed and entertaining.
I may have missed the main points of his information and may confused people even more, if so I apologize. But on the bigger scheme of things, it is a fourm and he has taken his time to put information that can be helpful. I thank him for such. Bottom line, though is we can read it or not, but I thank him for it.

Also the whole thread is quiet entertaining.
:cheers:
 
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