Cold Start Issue

[Tdubb]

I hate to post this because it's a small issue and I won't be able to address this for a couple weeks. Anyway I know I'll get lots of suggestions and that's much appreciated.

1. My bike is EFI.
2. I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter this winter, but did not have the tank liner replaced. The lining is not peeling in chunks. The lining is just dissolving slowly and had clogged the filter.

Here's the problem which just started a few weeks ago. When I start the bike it acts like carb bike that does not have the enrichener activated. It seems to stumble a little like it is idling too low or lacking fuel. If I don't add some gas, the bike will die. It's very subtle. Once the bike warms up its fine. Once I ride it about a mile it's fine.

When I restart, the bike will turn over very fast and not fire unless I add gas to the throttle. THIS IS NOT A NEW ISSUE. Always if the bike hadn't started on the first try (if I let off the start button too quick) this will usually happen.

My 10,000 mile service is just a few hundred miles away and my thoughts were that my air filter or plugs need replacement. I checked the filter yesterday and it looks clean. Meant to do the plugs this weekend, but I have been working 12-16 hour days for the last 3 1/2 weeks so I am much more wanting to ride rather than tinker since I finally have a few days off. Although this post took more time than changing out plugs would take lol:lol:

Thoughts???

 

[Jwooky]

I have/had the issue with the tank liner contaminating the EFI system. It really causes havoc.

I had to clean out the injectors also. Even though the stock filter is 30 micron, once it saturates the power of the pump will begin to draw through larger material.

It is likely it made it into yours as well. The pulse width of the injectors is very small at idle.

If you need advise I can help with a process to clean the injectors thanks to Tom(groundpounder)

Another thing you can do short term is bump up the injector pulse during starting or cold compensation using S&S protune. I can help with that as we'll or you can contact Tom Hampton at S&S.

You should not need to use Throttle to start the bike.

 

[Tdubb]

I have/had the issue with the tank liner contaminating the EFI system. It really causes havoc.

I had to clean out the injectors also. Even though the stock filter is 30 micron, once it saturates the power of the pump will begin to draw through larger material.

It is likely it made it into yours as well. The pulse width of the injectors is very small at idle.

If you need advise I can help with a process to clean the injectors thanks to Tom(groundpounder)

Another think you can do short term is bump up the injector pulse during starting using S&S protune. You should not need to use Throttle to start the bike.

Why would the problem go away when warmed up? Bike idles perfectly after warm up.

 

[Jwooky]

Can't say for sure but it does requires less fuel when warm. (Runs rich cold)

 

[Sven]

When I restart, the bike will turn over very fast and not fire unless I add gas to the throttle. THIS IS NOT A NEW ISSUE. Always if the bike hadn't started on the first try (if I let off the start button too quick) this will usually happen.

Interesting. I want to find a possible idiosyncrasy to this same hard starting hot or cold, This is NOT a NEW issue. Not new means to me it was always there since day one, yes or no?

If I walked up to the bike, my first idio is to turn the key on, open and close the throttle one time. This says I never touch the throttle again, I now hit the starter and see what happens?

The next morning I go out, turn the key on and hit the starter.
The next morning I go out, I turn the key on, WOT the throttle one time as before, start the engine.

If the engine starts cold or hot with the WOT (wide open throttle) release idio, guess WATT? Look at how you sort of know if this does not sequence this way, she won't start. I know the other idio is to add throttle opening, etc.

Find that start signal. The 'too quickly' screams, idio.

 

[Little-Boo]

Sounds to me like you might have a bad TPS or may need to be reset.

TPS adjustment sets point in the map that your bike works from. By establishing mixture at idle and effect the mixture throughout the range. TPS adjustment can only be done by someone who has the digital wrench program which does not exist for BDM anymore.

Try to reset the TPS by turning the Key on, switch on, engine off
slowly rotate throttle from closed to wide open Hold throttle wide open for about 10 seconds Let throttle SNAP shut/closed, Cycle the kill switch (off then on) Start bike, and see if that resets it

There may be a reset procedure in you manual, the above reset is for a victory, might not even come close to your bike but you have nothing to loose at this time :lol:

When I installed a V/H exhaust on my 2010 fat boy, If forgot to do the TPS reset, and it ran like crap, hard to start and all that you can thing off. I called V/H and the Tech asked me if I had done step No 20 which dealt with the Reset of the TPS. I said there is no step 20. He told me to read the install set up again and sure enough I had missed that set . Got it done and she ran great after that.

I don't know if an after market fuel management system would work on your Dog, I know that It sure works great on my wife's Sporty. I have the Fi2000 Cobra Fuel Management System and I can change anything I want, air cleaner, pipes, cam and it will make the adjustments as needed without me having to re-flash the onboard computer.

Carlos

 

[Sven]

Start bike with the TPS moved one hair away from the scribed mark you made as a baseline. Since the tool is not available, you do not know which way is 0, flip a coin.

The bike should start immediately. Once you moved less than a 32nd of an inch, move the sensor the other way from baseline, try to start the bike, no throttle touching when starting up.

This is more a static/guess. And if there is a dash code that pops up, you went out of range.

 

[Jwooky]

Start bike with the TPS moved one hair away from the scribed mark you made as a baseline. Since the tool is not available, you do not know which way is 0, flip a coin.

The bike should start immediately. Once you moved less than a 32nd of an inch, move the sensor the other way from baseline, try to start the bike, no throttle touching when starting up.

This is more a static/guess. And if there is a dash code that pops up, you went out of range.

This is ridiculous advice. This is guessing and not how to adjust a TPS.

Protune has a voltage reading of the TPS. It has a range of 0-5v.

Idle is ~0.4' WOT is ~4.8.

 

[Jwooky]

Sounds to me like you might have a bad TPS or may need to be reset.

TPS adjustment sets point in the map that your bike works from. By establishing mixture at idle and effect the mixture throughout the range. TPS adjustment can only be done by someone who has the digital wrench program which does not exist for BDM anymore.

Try to reset the TPS by turning the Key on, switch on, engine off
slowly rotate throttle from closed to wide open Hold throttle wide open for about 10 seconds Let throttle SNAP shut/closed, Cycle the kill switch (off then on) Start bike, and see if that resets it

There may be a reset procedure in you manual, the above reset is for a victory, might not even come close to your bike but you have nothing to loose at this time :lol:

When I installed a V/H exhaust on my 2010 fat boy, If forgot to do the TPS reset, and it ran like crap, hard to start and all that you can thing off. I called V/H and the Tech asked me if I had done step No 20 which dealt with the Reset of the TPS. I said there is no step 20. He told me to read the install set up again and sure enough I had missed that set . Got it done and she ran great after that.

I don't know if an after market fuel management system would work on your Dog, I know that It sure works great on my wife's Sporty. I have the Fi2000 Cobra Fuel Management System and I can change anything I want, air cleaner, pipes, cam and it will make the adjustments as needed without me having to re-flash the onboard computer.

Carlos

Sorry this does not apply to the S&S system.

 

[Sven]

This is ridiculous advice. This is guessing and not how to adjust a TPS.

No offense, Jwooky, but this is a stepper motor hanging out of the throttle body. The TPS and the subthrottle sensors are interchangeable and both dial in to the same spec.

How did I dial in the subthrottle without ohm meter? Take one cat, skin it, or in other words, been there done that and it will still start sooner as in 'BEST-TT' (truth table calc'd). No offense you be all book savvy doing it one way. I've got some advice for you. Close the book and figure things out the hard way, sir. Makes the job a lot easier, so step outta the way, oh I forgot....

Signed,

NOLTT ( :roll: ) Not trying to be a wiseguy, just have to prove myself over and over like I can multitask timing in a sensor more than one way, Hello?

 

[Little-Boo]

Sorry this does not apply to the S&S system.

I never said that it did, I was just pointing out that his TPS is not working the way it should. The rest of my post are examples of what I have done and how important it is to have a properly set TPS :2thumbs:

Carlos

 

[Sven]

I never said that it did, I was just pointing out that his TPS is not working the way it should. The rest of my post are examples of what I have done and how important it is to have a properly set TPS :2thumbs:

Carlos

1. Book Spec @ 0.40000v and it = Starts.

2. 555 timer ping = If applies, an LED light comes on when a code goes out of spec. So, every tiny increment you wait for the 555 to run the truth tables out = 0.4000009999v. And once the light goes out fandango = Starts.

3. No coding = I know my 555 timer is checking for the correct value or it spits a code, or the black box is not that sophisticated to set a code having a row of LED's, so it's: move-wait-start = Starts Quicker.

That's 3-variables I'll take to the bank.

The one suggestion was to send a pig after the poor starting as if no fuel on the morning/cold start. Hot start occurs too, correct?

"THIS IS NOT A NEW ISSUE" says to me, 'My bike model does not have tons of threads about cold start issues.' I'll assume the BDog starts right up cold. Therefore, I'd start with compression, then adjust the TPS after finding book range, etc.

Once I am in book range, I then begin to move the TPS so there is a possibility of a quicker start and still be within range. I am counting on the Truth Tables finding the BEST start number, meaning, I move in hair move increments.

My best TPS move adjustment is when hot. If it starts quick hot, it's going to start quick cold. Why? Because I still have both a hot/cold long start issue either way right now: 'this is not a new issue.'

So watt I'm doing is playing with the binary's output number against the calc of the ign/fuel tables. We Keypissh?

 

[Tdubb]

Okay I'm a step closer today after some troubleshooting and playing around. I found a relay which was slightly loose. The relay feeds the fuel pump, the fuel injectors and the ignition coil. The relay was disengaged by about 1/8" and corroded badly on its terminal blades. I pushed it back tight and problem went away. I'm thinking I should go get a replacement and exchange it while I have the side covers off.

The relay is a Song Chuang 871-1C-C-R1 U01 12VDC. 20A/35A. I searched the web and it's a standard automotive relay. Does anyone know a standard Harley relay that will work? For example I'd like to go to the Harley dealer and say I need a starter relay for a 2009 road glide or something like that.

I have a 2008 EFI Mastiff

 

[Brew]

How bout this, take the relay off and bring it in to the dealer with you so they can compare it. If he asks what it came off of, just say a softail your working on.

 

[Jwooky]

It's also the same as the horn. You can swap in the mean time.

 

[Tdubb]

Okay problem solved. Let me detail out the problem and diagnosis. I don't see that anyone had quite the same problem I had.

When cold, my bike would act like a cold carbureted bike. It would not idle and would die unless I gave it some gas. After warm up it would idle fine.

This week I rode it and noticed that when I hit the run button I didn't hear the fuel pump cycle. It still started but was still acting cold as before. In fact it took a long time to warm up and would run rough.

I got the bike home and it still would not charge the fuel pump when I hit run. I washed the bike and then I though I'd try and start the bike. No issue, but ran cold. I then shut off the bike and then I heard a high pitched buzz or whine. I also noticed that the red engine light was flashing very fast - basically in cycle with the high pitched buzz.

I decided to try and reset the EHC per the instructions under the seat. I disconnected the battery, reconnected and then turned on the key, hit run, turned off the key for at least 15 seconds. This time when I hit run, still no fuel pump sound but high pitched sound and flashing engine light. When I started the bike it would start up and rev at 3500 rpm rather than idle. It would do this a couple seconds and then quickly die. Still had the high pitched whine. That whine would go away after about 30 seconds. I tried the reset a couple times and issue remained.

I then proceeded to take of the side covers this morning and saw the relay (fuel pump, ignition, fuel injectors and O2 sensors) was disengaged about 1/8". I pushed it in and problem went away! Got lucky I guess. Was starting to think it was a bad EHC. I replaced the relay - it was really corroded and one of the spades was nearly ready to fall off.

Hope this helps others.

 

[Brew]

Glad that you found it and now up and running...:2thumbs: