Bad Geometry TP Rockers & Boxes

[RRRUFF]

Ok, tore the top end of my 05 S&S 117 and this is what I found. Very uneven wear pattern on the front intake valve stem head and the rear exhaust. As you can see in two of the pictures below the wear patter is off center and off square. This is not good.:down:

Front intake

Rear Exhaust

Rear intake

What do you think?

 

[Vegas]

Best post I've seen on the TP boxes. Picture one tells the story. That could be fixed easily with a rocker mount adjustment. But only if both valves on that shaft were identical. This is clearly an assembly problem and something that would've been caught by any decent engine builder.

 

[Five Five]

Rear intake

What do you think?[/QUOTE]

The Geometry looks pretty good in this pic.....what's the exhaust look like....is it the same ?
how many miles we talking about here ?

 

[Daddycool]

Now drop the valves and take some pics of the guides!

 

[Vegas]

Rear intake

What do you think?

One out of four.......so what?

 

[Daddycool]

it is more of a valve guide issue. Under the springs the guides will be oval shaped.

 

[Raywood]

I wish I would have thought to take pics of the top of my valve stems when I had mine apart.
How many miles did you have on the motor?

I reviewed the pictures I had of my bike and came up with this. My front exhaust valve was worn on its edge severely but my big issue was the rear exhaust valve guide leaking into my rocker boxes. Here is what mine was like at 65,000 miles on the motor:

Front rockers, you can see the un-even wear on the valve stem here on the front exhaust:

Rear rocker where you can clearly see the leakage but can't determine a wear mark on top of the valve stem:

 

[BikersDream]

Looking at your rocker wear pattern off center I assume you do not have roller tip rockers? Raywood you do. With or without roller tips the guides still show horrible wear after 5k miles. TP horrible boxes.:down: Give yourself a Christmas gift if you’re running the TP boxes. A new set of S&S boxes!:2thumbs:

 

[Mickeetwo]

What is the cost to switch from TP to S&S. I've got the TP's with a little over 13,000 miles. So far no problems, but my bike does use a little oil, it has used a little since new.

 

[RRRUFF]

I have about 12k on the motor. In my opinion this misalignment will cause side loading of the valve stems and thus cause undue wear to the valve guides and maybe even breakage when enough wear in on the guides. That's why roller rockers are better they eliminate alot of the lateral forces on the valve. However the misalignment side to side or squareness as you can see in pic #2 the rollers will not help. I am going to send my heads to John Sachs and he is going to rework them with bigger valves, some porting, and heavier springs and some other adjustments for compression. I am going to ask him to either take pictures for the guides on send them back to me and I will take some pictures and post. The biggest problem here to me is the lateral misalignment in pic #2, I think is was just a matter of time for a catastrophic failure. On both heads there was one valve that showed misalignment. This could be possibly adjusted out with machining or shimming. I am however going back all S&S.

Ray, 65000 miles bro, I would not complain. I would like to see some better pics of the valve stem heads. The first picture does look like a bad problem.

 

[RRRUFF]

Looking at your rocker wear pattern off center I assume you do not have roller tip rockers? Raywood you do. With or without roller tips the guides still show horrible wear after 5k miles. TP horrible boxes.:down: Give yourself a Christmas gift if you’re running the TP boxes. A new set of S&S boxes!:2thumbs:

BikersDream, I do have rollers.

What is the cost to switch from TP to S&S. I've got the TP's with a little over 13,000 miles. So far no problems, but my bike does use a little oil, it has used a little since new.

Mickeetwo, I will have about $1100, including the machining. I am going to have some extra work done since I have the EPA motor.

 

[RRRUFF]

Mickeetwo, I will have about $1100, including the machining. I am going to have some extra work done since I have the EPA motor.

 

[Vegas]

I have about 12k on the motor. In my opinion this misalignment will cause side loading of the valve stems and thus cause undue wear to the valve guides and maybe even breakage when enough wear in on the guides. That's why roller rockers are better they eliminate alot of the lateral forces on the valve. However the misalignment side to side or squareness as you can see in pic #2 the rollers will not help. I am going to send my heads to John Sachs and he is going to rework them with bigger valves, some porting, and heavier springs and some other adjustments for compression. I am going to ask him to either take pictures for the guides on send them back to me and I will take some pictures and post. The biggest problem here to me is the lateral misalignment in pic #2, I think is was just a matter of time for a catastrophic failure. On both heads there was one valve that showed misalignment. This could be possibly adjusted out with machining or shimming. I am however going back all S&S.

Ray, 65000 miles bro, I would not complain. I would like to see some better pics of the valve stem heads. The first picture does look like a bad problem.

I agree......

 

[MARV]

i have S&S boxes with JIM's rollers for 2-3 years now. maybe 20K+ miles.

had the exhaust off about a month ago and looking in the rear exhaust manifold i can see oil streaks down the sides of the guide. thinking this is just normal wear from the 640 cam and high rpm's.

 

[gajerry]

Great Pics Man!! :2thumbs:

 

[Olde Man]

Are all of the springs in the photos 585's ? Double spring with a flat dampener. Just truyind to figure what I have. Arn't the newer 585's the beehive style with the same specs that have a lot less seat and open pressure with the same performance?

 

[RRRUFF]

Are all of the springs in the photos 585's ? Double spring with a flat dampener. Just truyind to figure what I have. Arn't the newer 585's the beehive style with the same specs that have a lot less seat and open pressure with the same performance?

Don't really know, but I think you can take your engine number and call S&S and they can tell you what's in there originally.

 

[TheDeadOne]

Don't really know, but I think you can take your engine number and call S&S and they can tell you what's in there originally.

S&S may not know either. The BDM motors are all assembled by BDM, that's why there are TP Rockers and TP Boxes on these motors. But it worth a try, who knows.

Good Luck! :2thumbs:

dead