Asking questions about motor work?

Energy One

Ray

Well-Known Member
I have a 107 on my ole scooter. {about 8,000 miles on it} It has for the most part always rattled in the top end at higher rpms when I get into it or at about 75 -85 mph. I asked a mechanic about it and he immediately said probably the valve guides need replacing and are rattling at higher rpm's. He seemed to be pretty sure of this and said they would check it out to make sure. He seemed like he knows what he was talking about, but/and I like most of you am kind of weird about someone else working on my stuff. He said that would cost about 500 - 600 bucks. I ask him while you got it that far apart what would a bigger cam run me. He said about 1000 bucks maybe a little more out the door total to put whatever kind of cam he recominded in it. He said the price of the cam and an hours labor plus everything else. I need some advice from people I trust {This Forum} on the direction I should take here.

Ray
 

Bowhunter

Well-Known Member
The cam swap is no big deal Ray, sounds like about $800 profit on the cam swap. I don't know about the valve guides being the source of the rattle. I also have no idea on the cost of replacing the valve guides.
What I do know, is that if you want to do a cam swap, you will have no problem doing it yourself. If you want help on the cam swap, let me know and you and I can knock it out.
The older 107 motors had a more aggressive cam than the newer bikes due to EPA requirements. A call to S&S would be a good place to start on the cam recommendation.
I will send you my phone# so you can call if you wish.
 
My impression is that the mechanic wants 1000 bucks to install a new cam and replace the valve guides parts and labor. So I don't think 1000 is unreasonable. Of course that's provided the mechanic does the job right and doesn't try to cut corners.
 

Five Five

Well-Known Member
I rebuilt my 107" top and bottom. Local machine shop did my heads for $35 each. Grind valves and new guides. Lot of the 107" already have .600 S&S cam with .650" springs. That's plenty
 

bigdogtech01

Well-Known Member
Is it a rattle noise or more of a ticking? It's possible, givin the type of noise, you might have a lifter going bad. You could do a pushrod adjustment on it just to make sure it's not something as simple as that. You say it's always done it correct?
Does it use any oil? Smoke out of exhaust? If guides are worn enough to make noise, it most likely will be using oil.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
Is it a rattle noise or more of a ticking? It's possible, givin the type of noise, you might have a lifter going bad.
I would think a lifter is bad no matter what rpm, is my guess.

You could do a pushrod adjustment on it just to make sure it's not something as simple as that.
Agreed. This way, if you unload the rocker arm, they might swap in that harmonic rpm (75mph) having little to no backlash so it floats and the rod is floating the rocker knock if any movement is in the top end sound you mention? So if they use wave washers for ultra quiet noise, one may have broken and now the rocker swaps at that harmonic meaning. If they use flat shims and use this more for less friction, but the rocker is floating a little more than what the tolerance is called for?

Maybe a wave washer would stop any top end noise if that is where the problem lies? But you do not want waves if you cam up. Defeats the point.

Does it use any oil? Smoke out of exhaust? If guides are worn enough to make noise, it most likely will be using oil.
Agreed. This is when you start the engine up in the morning? Any oil splash is now going to run down the guide and valve stem. This will puff a momentary puff of burning that overnight leak down.

Also, with that kind of worn valve guide noise (cough-cough) you should be smelling that oil when you slow down on the backwash of a tint of smell? Some sort of oil burn you haven't mentioned? Then, when you lift off of the gas, a sucking of that lift of the throttle is pulling that oil in thru the worn guide. So that too is a sign of smoke being a constant when starting in the morning or upon lift and then re-accelerate, you should see smoke.

The noise he heard was you coming with that wallet flapping for cam work. So if he didn't take it for a ride, lift on the throttle, whip his head around, watch a bellow of smoke, then if not, the smoke he's blowing is upa yo ass.
 
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bigdogtech01

Well-Known Member
For once, I can actually understand whatever language that is your speaking SVEN, Lol.

Another noise factor can be related to what you would call spark knock...or pre ignition. Some people hear the noise and think it's valve train noise or piston slap...when in fact it's detination occuring BTDC. This can be caused from a number of things including> Out of time, bad fuel, wrong octane fuel (less than 92) motor running too hot or lean....ect.
Like I said, what type of noise is it? The 107 motor for the most part was a very reliable motor. Probably the most reliable EVO motor out there. And being a square motor (equal bore and stroke) it was also one of the most powerful HP per Cubic Inch.
 

Brew

Troop Supporter
For once, I can actually understand whatever language that is your speaking SVEN, Lol.

Another noise factor can be related to what you would call spark knock...or pre ignition. Some people hear the noise and think it's valve train noise or piston slap...when in fact it's detination occuring BTDC. This can be caused from a number of things including> Out of time, bad fuel, wrong octane fuel (less than 92) motor running too hot or lean....ect.
Like I said, what type of noise is it? The 107 motor for the most part was a very reliable motor. Probably the most reliable EVO motor out there. And being a square motor (equal bore and stroke) it was also one of the most powerful HP per Cubic Inch.
Good Lord it's a miracle...:roll::roll::roll:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
big said:
...valve train noise or piston slap...when in fact it's detination occuring BTDC.
Disagree. Det happens at peak TDC. I'm going to walk dishit out the bag if both ends were open say to find a way out? I'm running down some tube so you can see the piston moving up the cylinder is the idea. So you get the whole picture about BTD and T. So, here I'm running down some tube and it sure is going to end soon is the det appears. So before I get there, do you hear any noise? No, of course not. I'm still running smack into wall, but do you hear the noise yet = BTDC? You have to ask yourself, if before that split second your nose has a gap of air between that wall, and that to me is still a cushion of no sound? Now your nose is the tree that fell in the forest no one was around to hear it the fuk. Now, do you understand where det is at TDC, not still rearing it up BTDC? LOLike slamming a door: Slam + Air + Distance [time getting it reared up] to hit the door jam = Bang the drum slowly is I change from a door slamming to a hand with a stick instead. We Get WATT and where Det's POSITION LANDS, now IS THE NOISE? Not before top? Hello? I though you knew this stuff? My post makes noise. Yours make wind. That make sense?

Valve train noise or piston slap occurs every stroke up, then every stroke down. The trick here is a constant 2 time-noiseslap and this one is tricky to the ear... Listen to how it occurs:

When a valve lash is out of tolerance, the cam lobe smacks open a lost valve train lash and it taps maybe inconstant when hot or almost constant when cold. Some can tick when tight too. However, once you thing that the valve lash was off, confirmed it wasn't, the next noise of a tick or slap is now chasing the piston skirt clearance.

This too could be related to top end noise. To follow this tick, notice how small the gap is between piston skirt clearance and cylinder wall? This is a cold clearance. Once expanded, we have a different number. And if that numbered gap expands too wide, galls material off the piston skirt, a gap enlarges.

When this excessive gap occurs, a tick will be heard like a valve lash is too wide/too tight. So this tick happens on the thrust up is a slap. When the piston comes around, changes direction at TDC, you hear the other slap or tick. So if it was a top end noise tick, this too like the lifter, would be a constant noise at start up, rev, idle, or @ 75mph.

Again, this occurs @ 75 mph. And if the OP has mentioned no knock, but a noise @ 75mph, home he has no slap but to slap the posts that do not think thishit out. Then, Sven/Hub/cntrhub/Shovelicious/PazYearazzUp comes up with the empirical generic is to paz year azz up once again. Like the diagnostics is going this way and not zoning in on 75mph is the harmonic/noise/internet sounds like?


This can be caused from a number of things including> Out of time, bad fuel, wrong octane fuel (less than 92) motor running too hot or lean....ect.
Almost. The ping is under load, no? I run 87 octane in a 12:1 compression ration kind of bike. Where the gas tank sticker recommends 92 octane or better. I setup my bike to run @ 15.3:1 AFR. Where is my knock @ static 220psi is the last time I checked my OTTO's cylinders. Book called for 228psi being the high. High think I'm close enough that the bike's life of 87 octane was the juice of choice. See any damage using the cheap chit? My bike liked it.

Combine both the fuel and the compression ratio for this real world scenario. You have one situation scenario being in the wrong rpm range under cruise; in the wrong gear going up a steep hill or incline: this is called a load of pressure happening under the kinetic. And you mix that scenario with octane, they still use spark knocks to sense the harmonics and squash the advance curve down some to stop it. So knock in the OTTO is forever.

This [92] octane is more like squid juice. Racers use 87 octane. If there was a knocking noise, wouldn't they stop using it? Back to load based situations is the knocking scenario of the OTTO. So, will it tick down the road all at 75mph on the sustained? I haven't a clue of a lot of things, but common sense tells me I'd be riding at 75mph is the knocking tick? I doubt it. Is the OP in the wrong gear? If he was out of time, as soon as he'd leave a light he'd be under such loade loady watt he say?


Like I said, what type of noise is it?
Like I said, he said it ticks ONLY @ 75mph. Narrow it down is the tick @ 75mph. Who brings in all this baggage, if 75mph is the ticking/harmonic, and at no other time is that happening, right? I'm not trying to get on your case, fella. Do you understand where I have to clean up these 'runner upper' kind of posts and the schooling begins? No offense guy, but dishere is the 3rd time I'm running down the OP's suggestions witchew. I know it's a hunting party, but cheeze is. This stuff is confusing enough, you get them running in circles. How many hours you billing the customer you talking like dis on some wild goose of a chase.
 

bigdogtech01

Well-Known Member
Disagree. Det happens at peak TDC. I'm going to walk dishit out the bag if both ends were open say to find a way out? I'm running down some tube so you can see the piston moving up the cylinder is the idea. So you get the whole picture about BTD and T. So, here I'm running down some tube and it sure is going to end soon is the det appears. So before I get there, do you hear any noise? No, of course not. I'm still running smack into wall, but do you hear the noise yet = BTDC? You have to ask yourself, if before that split second your nose has a gap of air between that wall, and that to me is still a cushion of no sound? Now your nose is the tree that fell in the forest no one was around to hear it the fuk. Now, do you understand where det is at TDC, not still rearing it up BTDC? LOLike slamming a door: Slam + Air + Distance [time getting it reared up] to hit the door jam = Bang the drum slowly is I change from a door slamming to a hand with a stick instead. We Get WATT and where Det's POSITION LANDS, now IS THE NOISE? Not before top? Hello? I though you knew this stuff? My post makes noise. Yours make wind. That make sense?

Valve train noise or piston slap occurs every stroke up, then every stroke down. The trick here is a constant 2 time-noiseslap and this one is tricky to the ear... Listen to how it occurs:

When a valve lash is out of tolerance, the cam lobe smacks open a lost valve train lash and it taps maybe inconstant when hot or almost constant when cold. Some can tick when tight too. However, once you thing that the valve lash was off, confirmed it wasn't, the next noise of a tick or slap is now chasing the piston skirt clearance.

This too could be related to top end noise. To follow this tick, notice how small the gap is between piston skirt clearance and cylinder wall? This is a cold clearance. Once expanded, we have a different number. And if that numbered gap expands too wide, galls material off the piston skirt, a gap enlarges.

When this excessive gap occurs, a tick will be heard like a valve lash is too wide/too tight. So this tick happens on the thrust up is a slap. When the piston comes around, changes direction at TDC, you hear the other slap or tick. So if it was a top end noise tick, this too like the lifter, would be a constant noise at start up, rev, idle, or @ 75mph.

Again, this occurs @ 75 mph. And if the OP has mentioned no knock, but a noise @ 75mph, home he has no slap but to slap the posts that do not think thishit out. Then, Sven/Hub/cntrhub/Shovelicious/PazYearazzUp comes up with the empirical generic is to paz year azz up once again. Like the diagnostics is going this way and not zoning in on 75mph is the harmonic/noise/internet sounds like?


Almost. The ping is under load, no? I run 87 octane in a 12:1 compression ration kind of bike. Where the gas tank sticker recommends 92 octane or better. I setup my bike to run @ 15.3:1 AFR. Where is my knock @ static 220psi is the last time I checked my OTTO's cylinders. Book called for 228psi being the high. High think I'm close enough that the bike's life of 87 octane was the juice of choice. See any damage using the cheap chit? My bike liked it.

Combine both the fuel and the compression ratio for this real world scenario. You have one situation scenario being in the wrong rpm range under cruise; in the wrong gear going up a steep hill or incline: this is called a load of pressure happening under the kinetic. And you mix that scenario with octane, they still use spark knocks to sense the harmonics and squash the advance curve down some to stop it. So knock in the OTTO is forever.

This [92] octane is more like squid juice. Racers use 87 octane. If there was a knocking noise, wouldn't they stop using it? Back to load based situations is the knocking scenario of the OTTO. So, will it tick down the road all at 75mph on the sustained? I haven't a clue of a lot of things, but common sense tells me I'd be riding at 75mph is the knocking tick? I doubt it. Is the OP in the wrong gear? If he was out of time, as soon as he'd leave a light he'd be under such loade loady watt he say?


Like I said, he said it ticks ONLY @ 75mph. Narrow it down is the tick @ 75mph. Who brings in all this baggage, if 75mph is the ticking/harmonic, and at no other time is that happening, right? I'm not trying to get on your case, fella. Do you understand where I have to clean up these 'runner upper' kind of posts and the schooling begins? No offense guy, but dishere is the 3rd time I'm running down the OP's suggestions witchew. I know it's a hunting party, but cheeze is. This stuff is confusing enough, you get them running in circles. How many hours you billing the customer you talking like dis on some wild goose of a chase.
:job::job::job:There's that language we all love so much:job::job::job::loony::loony:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
It has for the most part always rattled in the top end at higher rpms when I get into it or at about 75 -85 mph.

Only 8k on the engine and the valves are loose. That means every engine family like the brand you have should have tons of threads about noise at 75 with 8k on them and it turned out to be the valves like this guy says. Enough engines out there to make this plausible? No, I don't think so. But every time I place a load on it, the top end makes noise or at about 75-85mph.

So with that said, can we figure out what is kinetic in noise and what is mechanical in noise? You figure that [difference] out, you're half way there.
 

Olde Man

Active Member
My 06 K9 would make a horrible rattleing sound when I accelerated hard. It would start a little above 4000 rpm and sound like the valve train was comming apart. I checked the usual gas tank vent tube but it ended up being a worn rear tank mount that was going metal to metal on the tank. Push down or lift the rear of the tank and see if the noise changes or quits.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
... it ended up being a worn rear tank mount that was going metal to metal on the tank. Push down or lift the rear of the tank and see if the noise changes or quits.
1+

See if there is any powder or a cloud kind of wear at the head-engine-steady. That's where the twin engine mount is anchored at the heads to the frame. See if that big bolt is turning or is loose with the proper socket and wrench.
 

bigdogtech01

Well-Known Member
Only 8k on the engine and the valves are loose. That means every engine family like the brand you have should have tons of threads about noise at 75 with 8k on them and it turned out to be the valves like this guy says. Enough engines out there to make this plausible? No, I don't think so. But every time I place a load on it, the top end makes noise or at about 75-85mph.

So with that said, can we figure out what is kinetic in noise and what is mechanical in noise? You figure that [difference] out, you're half way there.
:job::job::job::bang::bang::bang::roll::roll::roll:
 

Ray

Well-Known Member
Wow, after reading through all this I just thought I was confused before :eek:. I had a few minutes yesterday and the weather was decent so I took it out to really do some searching as far as the sound I am hearing is coming from and really try to listen for rattle or tick sound while the traffic was light. If I am just tooling around in through the country side around here I don't notice it much. Right off the bat before the heads got hot I just barely got it to the rpm's that makes it sound off and put my left hand on the very top of the head. In that range where it makes the noise it feels more like the tick sound on the top of the rocker boxs. I did check the tank and found nothing lose, rattling etc. It does it just in that higher rpm range no matter which gear it is in. The lower rpm range I can't hear it at all. Several times I put my hand on the top of the motor and could fell the ticking even after it got warmer into hot.

After thinking about the cam and what Five-Five said I can do without the cam. This noise needs to be fixed cause it is getting on my last nerve, very possibly cause I don't feel comfortable :bang:tearing into it myself like a car or truck engine. The shop that told me it was the valve guides possibly , and was grinning when I mentioned a cam gives me the same feeling I used to get when we took a vechicle into a transmission shop where you knew you were fixing to get took. I just want this noise to go away. I really became uneasy when I looked up the valve guides which I was told were $80.00 plus all the labor cost, and I can get them for $20 myself. I have no issue with someone trying to make a living doing whatever they are doing but have a bad feeling of hearing, "Well we found this and that and it will be another $1000 on top of that quote."

I really appreciate everyone's input on this and it gets me headed in a better direction than I was fixing to take. I can live without a cam right now, possibly help keep me breathing without assistance for a while longer too :D.
( without all that road rash as well). Bowhunter I will call you later this afternoon . You would not want me calling you now cause it is just now 5:00 am.

Again I say I appreciate evereyone here. I would have no issues at all leaving my ole scooter with any of you. I think you possibly understand that feeling too. We are headed in a much better direction getting this fixed now than I was before and I say "Thank You".

Ray :2thumbs:
 

bigdogtech01

Well-Known Member
Wow, after reading through all this I just thought I was confused before :eek:. I had a few minutes yesterday and the weather was decent so I took it out to really do some searching as far as the sound I am hearing is coming from and really try to listen for rattle or tick sound while the traffic was light. If I am just tooling around in through the country side around here I don't notice it much. Right off the bat before the heads got hot I just barely got it to the rpm's that makes it sound off and put my left hand on the very top of the head. In that range where it makes the noise it feels more like the tick sound on the top of the rocker boxs. I did check the tank and found nothing lose, rattling etc. It does it just in that higher rpm range no matter which gear it is in. The lower rpm range I can't hear it at all. Several times I put my hand on the top of the motor and could fell the ticking even after it got warmer into hot.

After thinking about the cam and what Five-Five said I can do without the cam. This noise needs to be fixed cause it is getting on my last nerve, very possibly cause I don't feel comfortable :bang:tearing into it myself like a car or truck engine. The shop that told me it was the valve guides possibly , and was grinning when I mentioned a cam gives me the same feeling I used to get when we took a vechicle into a transmission shop where you knew you were fixing to get took. I just want this noise to go away. I really became uneasy when I looked up the valve guides which I was told were $80.00 plus all the labor cost, and I can get them for $20 myself. I have no issue with someone trying to make a living doing whatever they are doing but have a bad feeling of hearing, "Well we found this and that and it will be another $1000 on top of that quote."

I really appreciate everyone's input on this and it gets me headed in a better direction than I was fixing to take. I can live without a cam right now, possibly help keep me breathing without assistance for a while longer too :D.
( without all that road rash as well). Bowhunter I will call you later this afternoon . You would not want me calling you now cause it is just now 5:00 am.

Again I say I appreciate evereyone here. I would have no issues at all leaving my ole scooter with any of you. I think you possibly understand that feeling too. We are headed in a much better direction getting this fixed now than I was before and I say "Thank You".

Ray :2thumbs:
Like I said before, it could be a bad lifter. Some other guys on here will tell you that if the lifter is bad, it will make noise at all RPM's...that's not necessarily the case. You see if these guys knew anything about these motors, and if they actually had spent real time working on them, they would know this.
Another easy thing to check is the Tappet screen. Make sure it's not dirty. But, I would think if it was the Tappet screen, more than one lifter would be making noise.
Another question is, Have you owned this bike from day one? If not, it's possible someone messed with your pushrod adjustment.
 
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