.585 cam vs. .600 cam in '07 Bulldog

[erldawg]

I know RT is shutting down and is a sad to hear. Everyone there was great to deal with including yourself.

Andrew I'm getting a little confused here in the post. Who exactly is the S&S set up guy? "I would introduce you to a guy in my area that is setup with S&S and is a hell of a motor guy" .. I know Scott at Rochester Thunder was the service manager and also technician.

No not Scott, he does not have the training. Andrew(Andy), yes from Rochester Thunder. Has anyone told you yet we are shutting down? I am moving to binghamton at the end of this coming week. If you need anything let me know.

 

[erldawg]

NO the EFI and Carb Bigdogs come now with the beehive springs and NON roller style rocker arms. The reason, Bigdog is buying the motors directly from S&S ready to go, no assembly needed. Bigdog used to build there motors there at the factory. The problem with that was they had to back there own work with there 2 year warranty. Now if anything goes wrong they are able to warranty it with S&S. It protects them and saves them money in the long run.

Also note, S&S states the Beehive springs can perform with up to a .600 lift cam and you do not need roller rockers.
Roller rockers are a good upgrade if you can afford it but not necessary. This is why all the newer bigdogs are a bit noisier top end than the old ones.

Also NOTE, Bigdog has Never had a triple spring in their motors. They used two. In order to run greater than a .600 cam you will need to take your heads apart and replace the 2 with the 3.

I guess that would answer my question on why the top end is a bit noisey. My preference would be to have the roller rockers regardless of cam lift. Less friction in my eyes and better performance. Is it absolutely necessary to remove the heads to change the springs or could this be accomplished with a aftermarket valve spring compression tool or is there clearance isssues with the frame?

Also what about reflashing the ECU when changing to the .600 cam? Is this possible or is better to cahnge out the whole ECU to something like the Thunderheart?

 

[erldawg]

erldawg,
You did understand that correctly......
I can only figure it was a cost savings to them....
Fatcat, a old member and BDM employee once said the EFI was designed for someone who just wanted to get on the bike and ride and not to be manipulated or modified. With a locked proprietary map in the ECM and the additional cost to improve performance it seems he knew BDM was up to something almost sinister in nature.
Neil

Neil
I know from previous posts in the EFI section that you had made changes to system with addition of the Thunderheart did you go to a bigger cam, headwork etc?

 

[Nomad2day]

NO the EFI and Carb Bigdogs come now with the beehive springs and NON roller style rocker arms. The reason, Bigdog is buying the motors directly from S&S ready to go, no assembly needed. Bigdog used to build there motors there at the factory. The problem with that was they had to back there own work with there 2 year warranty. Now if anything goes wrong they are able to warranty it with S&S. It protects them and saves them money in the long run.

Also note, S&S states the Beehive springs can perform with up to a .600 lift cam and you do not need roller rockers.
Roller rockers are a good upgrade if you can afford it but not necessary. This is why all the newer bigdogs are a bit noisier top end than the old ones.

Also NOTE, Bigdog has Never had a triple spring in their motors. They used two. In order to run greater than a .600 cam you will need to take your heads apart and replace the 2 with the 3.

My bad on the triple springs bigdogtech01,
I meant to say the dual coil spring with the red strip where the EFI had the single wound. I am running a .675 triple in mine with a .656 lift red shift cam.
I was speaking for the 07 Model big dogs on the springs being different seeing how the Bulldog was the only EFI bike offered then in 2007.
When did BDM start doing all the motors with the beehives or when did S&S start building the motors?

The S&S manual says "single wound" they are currently only available up to a .585 lift camshaft. They have a lower seat force of 125lbs and been tested up to 6500 rpms but did not see where it was recommended for any lift higher than the .585.

When I was at the factory I specifically asked why they used the VFI system with the single band and was told it was due to the 2 year waranty verses 1 year if they did not.
Perhaps when the contract runs out they will go in a different direction on the fuel management.
Neil

 

[Nomad2day]

Neil
I know from previous posts in the EFI section that you had made changes to system with addition of the Thunderheart did you go to a bigger cam, headwork etc?

Yes erldawg,
I have modified mine somewhat which is here somewhere. I started out with a stock 2007 EFI Bulldog bike.
S&S Roller Rockers
JIMS .675 Lift valve springs
Red Shift 656V2 Cam with some clearance work
Stock jugs cut 25 thousands
John Sachs did my head work and props go to him for his work and knowledge..Heads were milled, ported and polished and the springs set up for the cam.
John installed 2.02 and 1.615 valves and put in new valve guides. John set up the heads for a 11-1 compression after I told him how far the pistons were in the hole and milled the heads .
I have a R&B Racing 2-1 pipe.
I am also running the Thundermax wide band system with auto-tune for my fuel management. The EHC has been eliminated as well which has nothing to do with performance unless just being able to start it counts..

 

[117bigdog]

hey nomad. did you dyno it yet? I read the other section but don't remember. that must be putting out some rediculous power!!

 

[Baldielox]

Any dyno sheets for either of these cams? I can't decide which one I should go with.

- B

 

[bigdogtech01]

I know RT is shutting down and is a sad to hear. Everyone there was great to deal with including yourself.

Andrew I'm getting a little confused here in the post. Who exactly is the S&S set up guy? "I would introduce you to a guy in my area that is setup with S&S and is a hell of a motor guy" .. I know Scott at Rochester Thunder was the service manager and also technician.

LOL no not Scott, he was the service manager. I did every motor that came out of that place. I am referring to someone that I would have to say is better than myself, the guy that has helped and taught me, I worked for him 7 years ago, His name is Mike, owner of Rochester Custom Cycle (RCC) He is located on Commerce Dr. in Henrietta. I would not trust anyone else in that area to work on building you a hot rod motor. As far as tuning it with a Dyno, see Danny Theair (not sure if that is spelled correctly) over in Batavia, NY. He is very well know for Dyno tuning on motorcycles and snowmobiles.

 

[bigdogtech01]

I guess that would answer my question on why the top end is a bit noisey. My preference would be to have the roller rockers regardless of cam lift. Less friction in my eyes and better performance. Is it absolutely necessary to remove the heads to change the springs or could this be accomplished with a aftermarket valve spring compression tool or is there clearance isssues with the frame?

Also what about reflashing the ECU when changing to the .600 cam? Is this possible or is better to cahnge out the whole ECU to something like the Thunderheart?

Every motor I have built I take the top end off. It might take more time but it gives you a chance to make sure everything else is good and still in spec. I always check to make sure the cyl. are not all gouged up and check the valve guides for sure. Grab hold of the valves with them in the guides and see how much play is in them, if you can feel any, it is worn out of spec. I have never used that tool and probably never will. On the bench with the head off the motor you can get a much more accurate measurement of your valve spring installed height I would have to think. I am sure it would be more difficult with the head still on the bike. Just my 2 cents

 

[erldawg]

LOL no not Scott, he was the service manager. I did every motor that came out of that place. I am referring to someone that I would have to say is better than myself, the guy that has helped and taught me, I worked for him 7 years ago, His name is Mike, owner of Rochester Custom Cycle (RCC) He is located on Commerce Dr. in Henrietta. I would not trust anyone else in that area to work on building you a hot rod motor. As far as tuning it with a Dyno, see Danny Theair (not sure if that is spelled correctly) over in Batavia, NY. He is very well know for Dyno tuning on motorcycles and snowmobiles.

I ddin't think you were talking about Scott the service manager. When you get your shop up and running drop a me a PM.

 

[erldawg]

Yes erldawg,
I have modified mine somewhat which is here somewhere. I started out with a stock 2007 EFI Bulldog bike.
S&S Roller Rockers
JIMS .675 Lift valve springs
Red Shift 656V2 Cam with some clearance work
Stock jugs cut 25 thousands
John Sachs did my head work and props go to him for his work and knowledge..Heads were milled, ported and polished and the springs set up for the cam.
John installed 2.02 and 1.615 valves and put in new valve guides. John set up the heads for a 11-1 compression after I told him how far the pistons were in the hole and milled the heads .
I have a R&B Racing 2-1 pipe.
I am also running the Thundermax wide band system with auto-tune for my fuel management. The EHC has been eliminated as well which has nothing to do with performance unless just being able to start it counts..

Now I know why you keep smoking the rear tire off. :2thumbs:

I'm thinking a few mods but nothing that serious....

 

[Nomad2day]

Yes I have dynoed the bike and it made 128.4 hp and 141 tq this past summer. I drove the bike 45 minutes in 95 degree weather and then made the pull 10 minutes or so after I got there. The bike has more in it for sure. I am still running the stock air cleaner and it would really help if I would change it out to something free flowing....:bang:
Here is a link to the sheet on the forum here...

http://www.bigdogbiker.com/forums/dyno-runs/14469-dyno-results-07-bulldog-w-thundermax-wide-band-efi.html

 

[117bigdog]

god dam thats nice!

 

[MARV]

wow thats a perfect curve!

looks like you could even safely lean it out a bit for even more gains.

 

[bigdogtech01]

I ddin't think you were talking about Scott the service manager. When you get your shop up and running drop a me a PM.

Sure will, I'll post a message to everyone and let them know. I hope it all works out, I am done working for motorcycle dealers, they are so damn greedy. I was making DRT over $20k a month, after all expenses. You know how much of that I received? :down: Huh, not much man, it would make you sick to know, just like it did when I found out how much they were making off me.:bang: It's a good thing I love what I am doing, takes a little of the pain away:up: well maybe.