.585 cam vs. .600 cam in '07 Bulldog

Dead Stroke · Jul 26, 2009

I contacted S & S directly for a recommendation between the two and they recommended the 585 for my bike.

tell me about your results using the 585.

thx

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Dead Stroke · Jul 26, 2009

smoothiewop said:
They recommended same here that's why it's in there. I had the cylinders cut at the same time cam was installed. Camparing before and after roll-on with buddies bike I can see an improvement, but honestly would have liked more. I didn't do anything with mapping , but am now considering Thundermax with auto tune. Plus I have Mean mother exhaust and K & N filter with a desparado cover on the way. Not really sure how much the stock ECU will adjust. I heard good things about the Thundermax, but it's around $900. On the fence as of what to do next. Thundermax or .600 cam. Leaning towards Thundermax so I'm sure that what I already have is working the way it should. Hoping to get some good advice here though in case I'm heading in the wrong direction. Some pretty smart fellas here.
What is your take on the .585 cam? Do you wish you would have gone with the .600 since so many other guys here did with good results? Did you do any remapping when you put in the .585?

I have not changed cam yet. Here's what my research has found given the input from a couple members that have went thru all this and are up around 120- 130 horse power. this is there recommendation on my 2005, 117 chopper.;

1.upgraded pipes from stock ( done) get rid of restrictor plates if present
2. upgraded air intake from stock (done)
3. upgrade carb to a triple xxx ( my 05 came with a shorty E )
4. S&S 600 cam or something close to 600 lift, . he started with the 600 cam then went to the woods 650 cam but you have to install valve springs to use the bigger cam. If he had the chance to do it over again he would of went right to the woods 650.
5. Thunderheart Ignition. It's my understanding that this is a major improvement and makes motor come alive.
6. Deck the cylinders, heads to get 10.5 compression,
7. Bandit Clutch to get it all to the ground

Throttle · Oct 17, 2009

SmoothieWop,
Did the EFI automatically update the ignition system for the CAM? I am St. Louis and the Dealer is not sure how to increase the horsepower for an EFI motor. I want more low end torque, but can't do the work myself and resolve any issue I have created during this engine upgrade.

bigdogtech01 · Oct 17, 2009

smoothiewop said:
Sounds like I'm on the right track then. Here is what I have:
1. Mean mother pipes
2. Desperado ( S & S) air cleaner on the way.
3. Fuel injected
4. Cam installed (However probably a bit mild being a .585)
5. Thundermax auto tune will probably be next
6. Decked the cylinders already when the cam was installed.
7. Clutch I didn't plan on.

Put a good 2-1 system and you will gain low end torque. I would just find a known S&S tuning center and have them tune your bike for you. Make sure they know what they are doing and have all the training, you can mess it up and end up with major issues. The .585 will work fine with your stock heads (meaning stock porting and valves) you go with oversized valves and porting you should go with a .600 or larger. Find yourself a good motor shop and they can hook you up with everything you need that will work correctly. If you lived closer I would introduce you to a guy in my area that is setup with S&S and is a hell of a motor guy.

bigdogtech01 · Oct 17, 2009

Throttle said:
SmoothieWop,
Did the EFI automatically update the ignition system for the CAM? I am St. Louis and the Dealer is not sure how to increase the horsepower for an EFI motor. I want more low end torque, but can't do the work myself and resolve any issue I have created during this engine upgrade.

The EFI will only adjust itself to work with aftermarket exhaust and Air cleaner. Will not adjust to work with larger cams.

MARV · Oct 17, 2009

bigdogtech01 said:
If you lived closer I would introduce you to a guy in my area that is setup with S&S and is a hell of a motor guy.

scott?

bigdogtech01 · Oct 17, 2009

MARV said:
scott?

No not Scott, he does not have the training. Andrew(Andy), yes from Rochester Thunder. Has anyone told you yet we are shutting down? I am moving to binghamton at the end of this coming week. If you need anything let me know.

Nomad2day · Oct 17, 2009

On his EFI bike he has no choice but to run the .585 cam in it. The springs are a single beehive rated for a .585 max which was not the case for the carburated bikes which had the .650 lift triple wound springs. He would have to replace the springs to go with more. The EFI also is using a flat tappet rocker arm where the carburated bike have the roller tappets in them so going with more lift on them the valve train does not suffer as it would with the flat tappet rockers. Roller rockers would also be a must to upgrade.

bigdogtech01,
Does a certified S&S tuning center wipe out the proprietary map in the ECU which is locked for upload and downloading and replace it with a open S&S Pro Tune II software which is no longer locked to the user or do they have to replace the unit with a open ECU with the S&S Software in it?

Personally I am a fan of the wide band system over the S&S single band for many reasons and I think the only reason BDM went with the S&S VFI is due to the fact S&S would only waranty the motors for one year instead of two years if they used another fuel injection system on the bikes.
I do run the Thundermax Wide Band on my built 07 Bulldog and it has been a awesome system.
Neil

myanoch · Oct 17, 2009

They recomnended the 585 for mine also
I believe the 585 is a gret cam for my purpose
One the compressonis no 10.5
I run 2 up lots of times and I weigh 240lb.
With no modified igniton an shifting at 6000 max the overlamp is better for my purpose
duration compared to EPA cam is good,,
Also live in the mountains of PA.
Lots of hills,need that low end
Just my 2 sents

BikersDream · Oct 17, 2009

bigdogtech01 said:
Put a good 2-1 system and you will gain low end torque. I would just find a known S&S tuning center and have them tune your bike for you. Make sure they know what they are doing and have all the training, you can mess it up and end up with major issues. The .585 will work fine with your stock heads (meaning stock porting and valves) you go with oversized valves and porting you should go with a .600 or larger. Find yourself a good motor shop and they can hook you up with everything you need that will work correctly. If you lived closer I would introduce you to a guy in my area that is setup with S&S and is a hell of a motor guy.

(I would just find a known S&S tuning center and have them tune your bike for you)

Only one in GA is us. Not many around

Chopper117 · Oct 17, 2009

bigdogtech01 said:
No not Scott, he does not have the training. Andrew(Andy), yes from Rochester Thunder. Has anyone told you yet we are shutting down? I am moving to binghamton at the end of this coming week. If you need anything let me know.

Your not talking about Scott Palmer at Hillside Cycles NY right?

erldawg · Oct 17, 2009

I find it a bit strange that the EFI engines come with flat rockers and a single wound valve spring, while the carb models come with upgraded springs and roller rockers. I wonder what the reasoning was behind that one. Did I understand that correctly?

The reason I ask is I've been I've been thinking about upgrading to .600 cam and I do have EFI, and one of my concerns was how much more do I need besides cam, springs, rockers, re-map/new system.....Bike runs good now but would like a little extra.

Nomad2day said:
On his EFI bike he has no choice but to run the .585 cam in it. The springs are a single beehive rated for a .585 max which was not the case for the carburated bikes which had the .650 lift triple wound springs. He would have to replace the springs to go with more. The EFI also is using a flat tappet rocker arm where the carburated bike have the roller tappets in them so going with more lift on them the valve train does not suffer as it would with the flat tappet rockers. Roller rockers would also be a must to upgrade.
Neil

Nomad2day · Oct 18, 2009

erldawg,
You did understand that correctly......
I can only figure it was a cost savings to them....
Fatcat, a old member and BDM employee once said the EFI was designed for someone who just wanted to get on the bike and ride and not to be manipulated or modified. With a locked proprietary map in the ECM and the additional cost to improve performance it seems he knew BDM was up to something almost sinister in nature.
Neil

Throttle · Oct 18, 2009

Thanks to all , everyday I am learning more about these bikes. Please don't get me wrong, the hole shot is still fantastic! But, I need more! My Big Dog Dealer is a nervous about changing the motor and the EFI. I don't want to be the first!

Raywood · Oct 18, 2009

Throttle said:
My Big Dog Dealer is a nervous about changing the motor and the EFI. I don't want to be the first!

Most of dealers as we've witnessed on here have a high mechanic turn-around and they have a long learning curve with BD's so I would definitely question the mechanic that is doing your work and find out how long he has been out of the MMI school.

My dealer here (only one in Washington) has Thomas that has been working on Dogs for over 8 yrs. Last year in Tampa I met Shannon who has been working on Dogs for 12 yrs now.
My dealer in San Diego (before they closed) never had a mechanic stay for more than 6 months!!!

I want someone that knows something about the unique systems used on these bikes especially if it involves EFI or the EHC before he tears into my bike . As I've posted before the mechanics go to the Factory every year for a "Tech Summit" and the more Summits your mechanic has attended the more me knows about your bike.

No offense to any of the new dealer mechanics that may be on this site now.

:flag:

bigdogtech01 · Oct 18, 2009

Chopper117 said:
Your not talking about Scott Palmer at Hillside Cycles NY right?

NO Scott Vanorden from Rochester Thunder, Rush, NY.

bigdogtech01 · Oct 18, 2009

erldawg said:
I find it a bit strange that the EFI engines come with flat rockers and a single wound valve spring, while the carb models come with upgraded springs and roller rockers. I wonder what the reasoning was behind that one. Did I understand that correctly?

The reason I ask is I've been I've been thinking about upgrading to .600 cam and I do have EFI, and one of my concerns was how much more do I need besides cam, springs, rockers, re-map/new system.....Bike runs good now but would like a little extra.

NO the EFI and Carb Bigdogs come now with the beehive springs and NON roller style rocker arms. The reason, Bigdog is buying the motors directly from S&S ready to go, no assembly needed. Bigdog used to build there motors there at the factory. The problem with that was they had to back there own work with there 2 year warranty. Now if anything goes wrong they are able to warranty it with S&S. It protects them and saves them money in the long run.

Also note, S&S states the Beehive springs can perform with up to a .600 lift cam and you do not need roller rockers.
Roller rockers are a good upgrade if you can afford it but not necessary. This is why all the newer bigdogs are a bit noisier top end than the old ones.

Also NOTE, Bigdog has Never had a triple spring in their motors. They used two. In order to run greater than a .600 cam you will need to take your heads apart and replace the 2 with the 3.

.585 cam vs. .600 cam in '07 Bulldog

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