07 K-9 Tries to Start but won't Turn Over

[BigMack73]

If it is 5.5 years old, I would wait for a group buy or discount and get a new battery.

Quick Update: Has taken a while to cross-ship me a replacement TruGel battery for my Big Dog, it should be in tomorrow(Thursday 4/5) or Friday. My K-9 has been sluggishly starting OK for the past week or so while waiting on the new battery, but after finding the borderline Voltage Regulator to frame grounding issue that was causing lower than should be Running charging voltage to my Battery (13.7 volts as opposed to 14.4 volts) the 5.5 year old girl factory BDM battery is hanging in there and begrudgingly cranking the Dog fine each time.

Hope to get the replacement TruGel primed/Initial charged and installed by this Easter weekend before my wife's family all invited themselves over to my farm house for Easter again. Nieces and nephews like to go for rides on the K-9 and as the "Cool" Uncle with the big ass yard (AND Big-ass Chopper) for Easter egg hunting I need to be ready to oblige my kin! :choppersmiley:

 

[BigMack73]

Replacement TruGel battery came in on Monday 4/9, charged it up fully 4/10-4/11 and installed it last night.

K-9 is back to the original symptoms where it is hard starting or locks up during the start! (Tries to crank, does one big Click/Stops before turning over then lights flash)

I am going to proceed as if this new TruGel battery is definitely good, I can attempt to retry the whole cranking processfor the bike almost 13-14 times before I can tell the vigor goes down (Could only try about 4-5 attempts with original BigDog battery in place, 1-2 with the last new TruGel that ended up bad from factory). Although it feels to me as if the Compression Relief goes downward when I hit the start button, it still seems as if the cylinders are not getting the compression removed.

There were a few tips on t-shooting Compression Relief issues given in this thread so far, any more suggestions would be helpful!! Maybe what I think is the Comp Relief working is not really working at all?? Dunno. But now I may try pulling the spark plugs with a freshly charged battery to see if the engine turns over OK, and check the connections to my EHC, ignition, VR, and maybe even pull the gas tank to check the harness/connectors under the tank if all else fails. This seems to be an electrical/wiring issue. I bought a new Voltage tester Light and a new Tube of Dielectric Grease to go after troubleshooting electrical connections again.

So my checks will be:
1. Check Comp Reliefs to see if Solenoids going down during Start/Crank.
2. Pull Spark Plugs to see if Engine Cranks over fine with no Compression.
3. Check CR's to see if they go down when cranking with no spark plugs.
4. Recheck all connections around battery, EHC, VR, Ignition, Starter, and especially connections dealing with Compression Reliefs.
5. ????

Any other checks, ideas, or suggestions will be helpful.

If I can make headway after this I will jump it off and drive it straight to a V-twin mechanic who can work on Big Dogs as this is getting beyond my pitiful experience level! HAHA Losing too much riding time to having the Dog sit around and wait for me to figure this out...

 

[Nukeranger]

Cut and crimp new connections to the battery (I add a small amount of solder on the ring lug side just to ensure a good electrical connection). Also, get rid of the TruGel. I didn't see one TruGel on their website that had the CCAs needed for a Dog. Of course, it would be nice to know what model you have and what CCAs are expected. My Braille puts out around 700 CCAs.

I wouldn't worry about the Compression Releases right now. Just hold them down like mentioned above.

 

[BigMack73]

Cut and crimp new connections to the battery (I add a small amount of solder on the ring lug side just to ensure a good electrical connection). Also, get rid of the TruGel. I didn't see one TruGel on their website that had the CCAs needed for a Dog. Of course, it would be nice to know what model you have and what CCAs are expected. My Braille puts out around 700 CCAs.

I wouldn't worry about the Compression Releases right now. Just hold them down like mentioned above.

UPDATE:

This morning before heading out to work tried a few quick things.
1. Compression Relief solenoids definitely pull down on both cylinders when I hit the start button.
2. Pulled Spark Plugs real quick and motor cranks over fine with no Compression?
3. Also, can still feel the CR's go down, then back up after about 1-2 seconds when cranking with no plugs in...
4. Already had Battery case side covers pulled, gave a quick tug/visual checks to Battery POS/NEG connections, Starter POS/NEG connections (especially Starter ground at Mount bolt), connections at Circuit Breaker, and checked tightness of the EHC plug hex nuts.

I am at a loss now, only thing really left is to go back to the new TruGel battery and that it is somehow just a Piece Of S... (As NukeRanger mentions above!)

TruGel Model MG20L-BS or 78-0526 Supposed to have 320-330 CCAs at normal temps, rated to 240 CCAs at (-18C) but I am starting to have my serious doubts. I think my 5.5 year old original Big Dog factory AGM battery is doing better CCAs than this. I may put it back in again and have this TruGel tested for load. I believe it is time to buy a different new battery!

Suggestions on Battery to buy for the K-9, I think I have seen other threads in the BD Forums on Battery recommendations...
(Now I have to go tell a good friend that he recommended/sold me a POS/TruGel battery for my Dog.) Even at his discounted price, a shitty battery is still a shitty battery if it won't turn over your Dog? HAHA

Also, one other note, I noticed that there is a Black Covered ground braid cable that goes between the Starter and the Starter Solenoid, near the underside of the right side drive belt and Pipes. Over time (I presume from the heat of the Pipes) it has become cracked now where you can see large chunks of the copper braid underneath. I asked my BDM dealer about it before and they said it was no issue with the cracked sheath?

Ideas about what to look at next?

 

[Nukeranger]

You can get a Braille B2012 at Summit Racing or Amazon for about $159 and at Braille B2015 Battery - Racetrack Factory for $151.

I would check with Maddog Don first.

Nuke

 

[BigMack73]

You can get a Braille B2012 at Summit Racing or Amazon for about $159 and at Braille B2015 Battery - Racetrack Factory for $151.

I would check with Maddog Don first.

Nuke

While you were typing this I was outside trying a few things.
I took the original BDM battery and charged it overnight, took some jumper cables and 'jumped' my new TruGel battery... K-9 fires right up with no problems.

So, I came back in and read your post, right while this thought was going thru my head:
"So, do I want to buy the Braille B2015 or the Tomioka TR-B1500"???

One of those two will be on order and heading my way before this Friday is over! Hopefully the right battery with 350plus (or way more) CCAs will solve all these issues.
Fingers crossed! :SEX:

 

[Nukeranger]

I am quite certain that you will be very happy with more CCAs. My bike starts like a dream.

 

[BigMack73]

New Info:

Just for grins on Saturday morning (4/14) after charging the TruGell all night I decided to hop on and try starting the K-9, bike started right up vigorously like no problems??

Rode if for about an hour, since I had it cranked up and have not been able to ride for a while. Stopped and got gas, came back home. When wife later pulled in Saturday after she had been shopping with our daughter, decided to ask her if she wanted to go for a ride so we got all ready, sat down and went to crank the bike and "Click" Clunk (No Turn-over), Lights Flashing, same Symptoms... WTF??

I had thought maybe my Friday evening wire connection sanding/shining, cleaning, re-torquing, re-crimped on the battery POS/NEG connectors, got out my soldering iron and added solder to a few of the crimped connections, and all of this action may have solved the hard to No Starting issue. But no luck. The Saturday morning 'no-problem' crank-up was just another in a long line of intermittant fine starts!

I am now not as certain that this No-Starting/Turn-over Issue is my Battery, but some intermittant other problem causing the Hard Locking up during the Start problems??
I had never ordered my new Battery on Friday as my wife and I went out to eat (in the Cage...) and now wonder if buying another new Battery is really going to be the resolution since both batteries (original BDM AGM battery, and New TruGel) both seem to start the bike intermittantly fine at times, while a majority of other attempts are complete no-go with the Click and locking/lights flashing thing.

Any ideas?

I think I am going to re-install the original BDM battery again, take the new TruGel (replacement new battery) to town to have it load tested same as before and make sure it load tests OK and registers 320plus CCAs like it is supposed too. Just to be sure this new battery is sound.

Is there something with the starter that could cause these problems?
- Not sure when last time the Starter was opened, cleaned, etc.
- Would the Starter cause it to start fine one time, then not at all the next?
- Seems like both batteries turn the bike over fine with no plugs/Comp yet all tests of Comp Releases test OK.
- Both old original and new battery have on intermittant occasions at various charge levels, cranked the bike OK during this whole t-shooting episode.
- Both batteries also experience the Locking during Start/Light Flashing with equal intermittancy as well. Difference is the new TruGel will make more failed attempts, and when it cranks fine, cranks with a higher vigor (as would be expected from a newer battery).

I don't want to spend another 100-150plus Dollars on a second brand new battery if I don't need to. Although in the absence of any better plans I will buy a second new battery to move this forward, as the original still barely turns over the K-9 when it does crank OK, and when the TruGel turns it over it seems much more vigorous of a crank. So I can tell the original 5.5 year old AGM battery is definitely at its life's end...

Any help would be appreciated. I wish I had just bought one of the Braille/Tomioka's first instead of buying the TruGel from a friend, but, was trying to be a good friend and give him business.

Does the plan to re-install original battery back into the bike (would be 5th Battery swapout in the last month, why not?? haha) and have the 2nd New TruGel load tested sound valid at this point?

Then is there anything other than battery connections, Starter Connections, VR connections, Ignition Wires/Spark plug wires, or Compression Releases that I could look at that may still cause the hard starting Lock-up symptoms mentioned??

 

[Nukeranger]

I would manually open the Compression Releases on each start (depress by pushing on rubber cover/boot) and see if this doesn't solve your problem. If so, then the Compression Release(s) (one or both) are causing your hard starting.

 

[BigMack73]

I would manually open the Compression Releases on each start (depress by pushing on rubber cover/boot) and see if this doesn't solve your problem. If so, then the Compression Release(s) (one or both) are causing your hard starting.

I have tried depressing the CR's manually, from what I understand now (after reading thru CR threads in this Forums) the electronic ones in my 2007 117 will only stay down electronically for about a second or two, unless held down? so I can only hold one at a time while pressing the Start button, which doesn't seem to help. For all I know holding them down is not actually keeping them open and the compression is still not relieved.

I am starting to think that my intermittant problem is that the CR's may be actuating the plunger but may NOT be actually releasing/opening the CR's every time, especially after reading these threads:

http://www.bigdogbiker.com/forums/i...4201-electronic-compression-release-help.html

http://www.bigdogbiker.com/forums/motor/21490-compression-release-failure.html

I am thinking my main issue seems to be a problem intermittanly trying to crank-over my K-9 against the Compression of the 117 because it turns over fine with the Spark Plugs pulled with either the old or the new battery (old battery won't crank as vigorously nor as long as the new battery). But, on the majority of starting attempts it will CLICK/CLUNK lock/lights flash and never turn over.

Up till this past weekend many suggestions in this thread were along the line that the battery's CCA power was the main problem, but I am not convinced any longer that the battery is the primary issue any more (other than lacking enough CCAs to crank through the compression) after seeing the vigor by which my new installed TruGel cranks when it will crank over.

OK, here is the IDIOT leap of faith, to ASSUME (Ass outta U & ME... :loony that the battery is NOT the issue, but a problem with cranking against the compression of the 117. Every 1 out of 7-10 Cranks, the bike will turn over and crank perfectly fine like there is nothing wrong, problem is not knowing when this will happen, and having to recharge batteries to re-try cranking when multiple start attempts fail and the batteries draw down.

My question is, can you have electronic Compression Releases, which seem to test OK (feel the plunger go down on both when Start button pressed and Greeen wire to Starter removed...) but in actuality the plungers can feel like they are working BUT, the CR's are staying closed and Compression is not actually being Released??

I seemed to get the implication in the Compression Release threads above that this can happen at times. My problem may be that when the CR's actually REALLY WORK and OPEN UP all the way and release the Compression in the cylinder, my K-9 turns over and starts right up no problem (about 1 in 7-10 crank attempts currently).
- Then there are all of the other times when the CR's FAIL to OPEN although the actuators click and the plungers seem to go down, but the Bike will lock up before even turning over against the compression... Get the big CLICK/CLUNK Lockup and the Lights Flash (like indicating a poor/weak battery but in fact I may just not have a battery of sufficient CCAs to crank through the compression).

Can this happen with the electronic CR's on the Big Dogs with the 117s? Do I need to 'Clean' the carbon out of mine with some sort of cleaning/Lube?? One thread mentioned 'Krull' Oil/Lube? Is it as simple as just pulling the Cover/Condom off and spraying the Lube/cleaner down into the actuator/plunger and letting it work thru and clean out the crabon build-up?

Or I guess I could still purchase one of the two batteries capable of cranking thru/against the compression (Braille or Tomioka) and make this discussion moot?

 

[ksmike]

I wouldn't even waist your time messing with your 5 year old battery. It's done now, or will be done when you need it the most..... I would get a Braille or Tomioka Racing battery and go from there. I have a Tomioka and it works great.

Have you measured the battery voltage while the engine is trying to crank? If I remember correctly on mine the compression releases did not work under 10 volts and my cranking voltage was going down to around 6 volts on the stock 2 year old battery. On mine when the compression releases work you can hear a hissing sound for the first second or so of cranking.

Don't spray anything on the compression releases unless you have them out of the engine to clean them properly!!! They vent into the exhaust port, so there is no way to clean them while in the head. The hole could be carboned up in the vent or in the release maybe???

Here is info on the compression releases.....Electric Compression Release Kit

Another thought would be to get a GOOD car battery and make a temporary cable set up to see how well it starts and charges when there is plenty of amperage and voltage to work from.

 

[BigDogBro1]

From another thread.

 

[ksmike]

That's a great picture of the CR torn down. It looks like there is a lot of carbon build up on the plunger and that maybe even there is some leak-by up into the rubber cover. I wonder if there are seals that can go bad on plunger? It also looks to me that the one in the picture could have a case of intermittent operation....a little less sophisticated of a device than I expected.

 

[stlmikie]

Is it possible tgat the CR's have a build up of carbon on them that aren't allowing them to function properly? Maybe you could pull one to take a look at it.

 

[BadBrad]

I've walked in your shoes, purchased a brand new POS battery and it didn't last a week. Hell, I can get another new battery since it failed, so I did. Got the same brand POS new battery. Lasted a month and died, but got another new battery. Same POS new battery. Like taking sand to the beach, it just doesn't make sense. Stop driving yourself crazy with all this troubleshooting. Buy a Braille and your problems mysteriously vanish!!!!!!!!!! When not riding, keep it on a tender, not a car battery charger. Some batteries are just not made for these bikes, regardless of what they advertise. It's similar to buying a $35 set of mirrors that look just like the billit mirrors, but are 1/3 the weight, but they look identical. These dogs will vibrate them to pieces in short order. Braille puts out over 450 cca. You won't regret spending an extra $50 when it fires up "EVERY" time. I think the saying for cheap batteries goes, "60% of the time, they work every time".

 

[BigMack73]

Appreciate all the help and tips!! Borrowed a compression tester from a mechanic friend and found that even though the plungers on my Compression Releases seem to actuate and go down, barely any Compression relieved on the 1-2 seconds they are actuated or first crank over turns!! Apparently my CRs are not working for bullshit...

Funny thing is, my K-9 has ALWAYS cranked sluggishly on that first crank-over turn since I bought it in Summer 2006. I think anyone who read my long-winded first post of this thread I think I mentioned that from the start!

So, this also meant that the Second NEW POS TruGel battery apparently does NOT put out enough CCAs for crap either, not enough to turn over my K-9 against the Compression in lieu of the barely functional electronic CRs.

End result, new Braille battery on order as of yesterday, will be delivered most likely the first of next week (Mon/Tues) hopefully. I did NOT use the group purchase capability through AutoAnything.com and Maddog Don/ValueTek cause I found the Braille for under $159.00 w Free shipping through Amazon.com (of all places...) and had both a 'we're sorry' Coupon from a former bad Amazon-screwup delivery for a 25% off next/any order over $100, and my company had given me a $100 Amazon gift card for winning a stupid Company contest last year so I was able to basically order the Braille B2015 from Amazon, along with a new Battery Tender Jr. (my Tender Jr. is 5.5 years old and beat up just like my original K-9 battery!) and only had to pay $32 dollars out of pocket!! (If I had purchased ONLY the Braille battery it would have been essentially almost free!)

Plus, the best Ship By date AutoAnything was giving me for a first possible ship date on the Braille was NO sooner than April 26th with an estimated delivery of first week of May sometime. After this whole No-cranking episode has drug on and on since before Daytona Bike week back weeks ago I am ready to get a new badazz battery in place in the K-9 that can Crank the total shit outta my Dog right through the compression!

I will Update the Thread with what happens when the new Braille is installed so everyone who reads my Thread and has a 4-5plus year old K-9 w original factory battery or has a 117 S&S engine and has the same symptoms maybe will benefit from my fruitless stupidity and just go out an buy a super good Braille B2015 (or Tomioka TR-B1500) battery for their first replacement of a OEM Big Dog battery and not have to take weeks (and waste $125 dollars on a BikeMaster TruGel battery) to get to where I will be at next week!! HAHAHA

Here's fingers crossed that this whole problem has been a too weak of CCAs battery ALL ALONG! :bang:

Yep, ole BigMack is sometimes a little 'slow' to catch on... Sorry it took me so long to finally go purchase one of the few recommended batteries that EVERYONE on BigDogBiker Forums ALL say are the best and only to buy for the 117's that power our Dogs.

 

[BigDogBro1]

Why not remove the CR's and CHECK, fix or replace them? They are probably plugged with carbon build-up. You could always carry a car battery on you lap.

 

[pknowles]

D-8 batteries have tons of cranking amps and if carried on the lap, could double as a workbench.

 

[toodie]

End result, new Braille battery on order as of yesterday, will be delivered most likely the first of next week (Mon/Tues) hopefully. I did NOT use the group purchase capability through AutoAnything.com and Maddog Don/ValueTek cause I found the Braille for under $159.00 w Free shipping through Amazon.com (of all places...) and had both a 'we're sorry' Coupon from a former bad Amazon-screwup delivery for a 25% off next/any order over $100, and my company had given me a $100 Amazon gift card for winning a stupid Company contest last year so I was able to basically order the Braille B2015 from Amazon, along with a new Battery Tender Jr. (my Tender Jr. is 5.5 years old and beat up just like my original K-9 battery!) and only had to pay $32 dollars out of pocket!! (If I had purchased ONLY the Braille battery it would have been essentially almost free!)

Plus, the best Ship By date AutoAnything was giving me for a first possible ship date on the Braille was NO sooner than April 26th with an estimated delivery of first week of May sometime. After this whole No-cranking episode has drug on and on since before Daytona Bike week back weeks ago I am ready to get a new badazz battery in place in the K-9 that can Crank the total shit outta my Dog right through the compression!

:2thumbs::2thumbs: awesome deal on your purchase just received new braille yesterday ($142 from AutoAnything) I think they put a big lead time on the expected ship date ordered mine a week ago with an expected ship date of 4/19 delivered 4/18

Hope the battery is the issue cause I am sure the braille has more than enough to spin that dog.

 

[BigMack73]

K-9 IS FIXED!! Braille Battery saves the Dog!

FINAL STATUS!!

Installed new Braille battery this evening, the BigDog roared to life!!

I am a convert now of these batteries, my bike has never cranked so vigorously at the first touch of the Start button...

Thought I'd let everyone know the outcome!

Ride safe All and THANKS for the help! :choppersmiley:

Details for those that want them:

1. Battery delivered today, I put it on the charger first to top-off, Braille came in 88% charged, most likely would have Started the Dog OK with no charging top-off I'll bet.

2. Once 100% charged I took the POS second 'New' BikeMaster TruGel and the new Braille B2015 batteries into town to the same Advance Auto Parts to load test the batteries. The TruGel (rated supposedly at 330 CCAs) only tested at 265 CCAs!! (265 is LESS than my original 5.5 Year old AGM battery from factory BigDog tested 3 weeks ago at 267 CCAs!!! WTF???)
Moral: BIKEMASTER TRUGEL Batteries (even when NEW) are Pieces of SHIT!!!

3. New Braille B2015 Load Tested at an amazing 627 CCAs and a factory 'Test' sheet shipped with the Braille had it rated at 646 when it was QA tested and factory charged before shipping... Holy Shizz Nuff said...

4. Before leaving town went and bought Stainless Steel 10mm fine threaded #6 Hex Bolts, Washers, Lock washers for the install, along with some rubber padding to cut/place on Braille to protect it in the battery well from rubbing/vibrations against frame mounting bolts, etc.

5. Came home and installed the Braille, re-burnished all connectors POS/NEG and re-installed them rubbing down generously with Dielectric grease, all looked so silver and shiny I was already getting a potential "Dog is Gonna Start-Up" boner in anticipation. Checked the resting DC Voltage at the battery and it was a spicy 13.54 DC volts. I can feel the pulse starting to race a little in my forehead, I am getting excited like a school girl getting her first bra... (Should I admit that?? )

6. Just so as to not be too cocky, I proceeded with my first 'post-Braille installation' Cranking test BEFORE putting the Seat back on. I did NOT want to be so bold as to assume it would start up... I turned the key, waited the normal 2 sec for the Speedo to do its thing, hit the Run Button, then, hit the Start button and
WHAMMO! The K-9 Started so GD fast and vigorous it made me almost piss myself...

7. Just to be scientific (hell I have already done more maintenance on the K-9 in the last 10-12 weeks as the whole 5.5 years all total prior to this so why stop now??) So I checked the charging/Voltage while running at the battery POS/NEG terminals and it was at a healthy 14.45 volts DC!! Good to go...
(Next I will check the resting voltage after a decent ride, and the DC voltage drop off 'during' a Crank-up but what the Frak... I say Hellz with that for now - I am going for a ride!! :up

Took the K-9 out for a 1-1.5 hour evening ride, felt good to ride out most of a tank of gas without worrying if the Bike will crank or not and leave me stranded. So after coming back close to home, I stopped 3 times within 15 minutes at the end of the ride, cutting off the K-9 at each stop and the Bike cranked back up like Hellz Bellz each time! I am sold on Braille's now, wondering why the holy crapfest I did not buy one of these YEARS ago!

Here is my Braille pitch:
I have owned this 117ci BigDog since the day it came from the factory almost 6 years ago, and NEVER, ever since I first cranked it at the Big Dog Dealership the very first day has the K-9 ever cranked so hard and vigorous on the first instant of depressing the Start button!

Note to self: Still need to have Compression Releases checked/serviced/cleaned at next tune-up/servicing BUT, a Braille with over 600 CCAs will most likely crank right THROUGH the compression if I keep it on the Tender religiously (and I always do, which is how I got 5.5 years out of the original BigDog factory AGM battery).

I did just buy a brand new Deltran Battery Tender Jr. and was shipped a few days prior to the Braille, many have said these should be changed every few years, I got 5.5 years service out of my first when I bought this K-9.

THANKS to all for your help, I learned many new lessons and finally 'popped my cherry' doing my own maintenance on my Big Dog with this Forum's help, it was fun, invigorating, and somewhat ego bolstering all at the same time!

Next Projects:
- Buy a K&P Stainless Steel Oil Filter and the 'Oil Scavenger' and start DOING MY OWN GD OIL CHANGES!!
- Buy and install the 'DeadOne's' Big Dog Charging System Battery Fault Light as mentioned earlier in this Thread!
- Replace my original BigDog 'Vibrating/Fogging' Speedo with a Dakota Digital or Medallion Speedo!
- Keep Praying over my original Factory EHC Harness!! HAHAHAHA

Extra Edit: Took the BigDog and my wife to Leesburg BikeFest today (Sat Apr. 28th) and it rode sweet and CRANKED up every time no problems...
Even cranking and riding for a few minutes in Leesburg from venue to venue starts EVERY time! Great feeling of satisfaction...