Anyone with an EFI K-9 and a 585 cam

[Jersey Big Mike]

Do you know what you change in MPG was when you swapped out to the 585 cam.

I'm thinking about it but if the hit is too big I won't bother -- Don't really need more power the way I ride 95% of the time, but every now and again that extra little giddya up could be usefull.

Currently on the highway (40-65mph) I typically get 40 - 44 MPG better when I can get 100% gas with no ethanol.

So does anyone know the impact on an EFI bike, I suspect the CARBed bike will take a harder hit as EFI can adjust on the fly and is generally more consistent.

thanks.

 

[mleach72]

Do you know what you change in MPG was when you swapped out to the 585 cam.

I'm thinking about it but if the hit is too big I won't bother -- Don't really need more power the way I ride 95% of the time, but every now and again that extra little giddya up could be usefull.

Currently on the highway (40-65mph) I typically get 40 - 44 MPG better when I can get 100% gas with no ethanol.

So does anyone know the impact on an EFI bike, I suspect the CARBed bike will take a harder hit as EFI can adjust on the fly and is generally more consistent.

thanks.

Hey Mike, I don't have EFI, but I did lose a couple mpg's initially when I installed the 585. I was around 42-44 before, and about 39-41 after. That was before I did some retuning on the mikuni. You can really get the cruising range dialed in for best fuel mileage, much like EFI. Coming back from the Flight 93 memorial last 9/11, I checked my fuel mileage and I got 47 mpg. With EFI, I doubt you would see any loss. You may even see a gain.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Hey Mike, I don't have EFI, but I did lose a couple mpg's initially when I installed the 585. I was around 42-44 before, and about 39-41 after. That was before I did some retuning on the mikuni. You can really get the cruising range dialed in for best fuel mileage, much like EFI. Coming back from the Flight 93 memorial last 9/11, I checked my fuel mileage and I got 47 mpg. With EFI, I doubt you would see any loss. You may even see a gain.

Thanks Matt -- now it will come to $$ and time to do!

 

[mleach72]

It's definitely an upgrade you can feel and hear. The way gas prices are, I wouldn't want to lose much either. Is the EFI system on big dogs self-learning?

 

[john sachs]

Whenever you change a cam, or any mod for that matter, you need to do more to help make the new cam make the combo/motor more efficient. IE. the most important is bump compression if the cam has more duration. Naturally the tune up needs to be tailored also.
John

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Whenever you change a cam, or any mod for that matter, you need to do more to help make the new cam make the combo/motor more efficient. IE. the most important is bump compression if the cam has more duration. Naturally the tune up needs to be tailored also.
John

How do I do that John? What would you recommend? Enginie currently has 65K on it.

I thought from everything I read that the 585 was a drop in and go deal as I understood it that was the cam that should have been in the bike and was backed down for epa reasons.

 

[john sachs]

How do I do that John? What would you recommend? Enginie currently has 65K on it.

I thought from everything I read that the 585 was a drop in and go deal as I understood it that was the cam that should have been in the bike and was backed down for epa reasons.

The word is EFFICIENT. Of course the 585 cam should be a drop in, and work.(B.D. epa engines came with .600" lift valve springs.) The 585 cam will most likely leave low end power, and torque less than what you currently have. It's more of a mid-range, top end cam compared to the epa cam. Raise compression and you'll feel a major difference.
John

 

[mleach72]

I have to respectfully disagree with John here. The 585 is a noticeable improvement all across the rpm range. The 585 has an earlier closing intake valve than either of the two epa cams that BDM used in the '05-later bikes. This means more cylinder pressure, which is what produces torque. The 585 has more lift and way more overlap, which really makes the bike pull in the higher rpm's. The early closing intake is going to put your cold cranking pressure above 175 psi with the stock 9.6:1 compression ratio. Bumping the compression is going to take a toll on the starter and possibly cause detonation problems under heavy load. Sure, the 600 needs the compression raised to work at its best due to the late closing intake valve, but the 585 is right in its wheelhouse with the stock 9.6:1 cr.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

The word is EFFICIENT. Of course the 585 cam should be a drop in, and work.(B.D. epa engines came with .600" lift valve springs.) The 585 cam will most likely leave low end power, and torque less than what you currently have. It's more of a mid-range, top end cam compared to the epa cam. Raise compression and you'll feel a major difference.
John

Again, I ask. In your opinion what should be done when moving to the 585 to be effcient? And what effect would that likely have on MPG?

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

I installed a 585 cam

It's definitely an upgrade you can feel and hear. The way gas prices are, I wouldn't want to lose much either. Is the EFI system on big dogs self-learning?

Not stock ones, the vfi is locked and only allows for a 20 percent change in fuel and air before it throws codes. I went with an unlocked one from S&S with the wide band 02 sensors and had my local S&S pro-tuner dyno and set mine up. I've had some hiccups along the way, but I'm getting the bike back tomorrow after having some new injectors put in since one of mine started leaking gas from a crack in it. He spent about 2.5 hours on the tune and says he has it damn close to perfect now. Guess we will see..
Work on my 111 ci 2009 bagger is pipes, air breather and unlocked VFI and I'm getting about 160 on a tank of gas but that has been with a cracked fuel injector also. Think my bagger has 4.6 gallon tank? Next week I'll fill it up and ride till the dummy light comes on. lol And report back.

 

[mleach72]

I installed a 585 cam

Not stock ones, the vfi is locked and only allows for a 20 percent change in fuel and air before it throws codes. I went with an unlocked one from S&S with the wide band 02 sensors and had my local S&S pro-tuner dyno and set mine up. I've had some hiccups along the way, but I'm getting the bike back tomorrow after having some new injectors put in since one of mine started leaking gas from a crack in it. He spent about 2.5 hours on the tune and says he has it damn close to perfect now. Guess we will see..
Work on my 111 ci 2009 bagger is pipes, air breather and unlocked VFI and I'm getting about 160 on a tank of gas but that has been with a cracked fuel injector also. Think my bagger has 4.6 gallon tank? Next week I'll fill it up and ride till the dummy light comes on. lol And report back.

I don't know a lot about the BDM EFI systems systems, but I would think that just a cam change would be inside 20%, but I could be wrong.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I installed a 585 cam

Not stock ones, the vfi is locked and only allows for a 20 percent change in fuel and air before it throws codes. I went with an unlocked one from S&S with the wide band 02 sensors and had my local S&S pro-tuner dyno and set mine up. I've had some hiccups along the way, but I'm getting the bike back tomorrow after having some new injectors put in since one of mine started leaking gas from a crack in it. He spent about 2.5 hours on the tune and says he has it damn close to perfect now. Guess we will see..
Work on my 111 ci 2009 bagger is pipes, air breather and unlocked VFI and I'm getting about 160 on a tank of gas but that has been with a cracked fuel injector also. Think my bagger has 4.6 gallon tank? Next week I'll fill it up and ride till the dummy light comes on. lol And report back.

So how much re-wiring did you need to do to convert to wide-band vs narrow band o2 sensors?
Also do you have a part # for the wideband o2 sensors.

 

[Jwooky]

The stock S&S O2 sensors are already wide band, and the VFI is self tuning also.

It is correct the OEM locked version only has a 20% range. Unlocked unlimited.

I am not sure if that’s enough for the cam or not.

 

[Jwooky]

Tom (groundpounder) has this setup, not around here much but I can text him. Can’t remember if his VFI is unlocked or not.

 

[mleach72]

The stock S&S O2 sensors are already wide band, and the VFI is self tuning also.

It is correct the OEM locked version only has a 20% range. Unlocked unlimited.

I am not sure if that’s enough for the cam or not.

I forgot that the 20% window would be with the bike in completely stock form. A good set of pipes is going eat up some of that. Pipes AND a cam change might be more than 20%. Would there be any harm done if you tried it with the locked VFI before you spent the money on an unlocked one?

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

The stock S&S O2 sensors are already wide band, and the VFI is self tuning also.

It is correct the OEM locked version only has a 20% range. Unlocked unlimited.

I am not sure if that’s enough for the cam or not.

The 02 sensors in the K-9 are NARROW BAND not wide band.
Examination of the schematic shows this -- Narrow band have 1 sensor output, Wide Band have 2
The 4 wires for the heater + and - and sensor out and ground
That is a narrow band sensor.
Also Narrow band sensor output is typically 0-1v, Wide Band sesnsors are 0-5vmax(typically 0-3.5)
Using S&S Protune shows the 1v level output.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I forgot that the 20% window would be with the bike in completely stock form. A good set of pipes is going eat up some of that. Pipes AND a cam change might be more than 20%. Would there be any harm done if you tried it with the locked VFI before you spent the money on an unlocked one?

If I have to go unlocked I am completely changing to another brand EFI -- S&S options for the BDM are scarce if you can get them and I'm more likely to build my own based off of the Speediuno project that is very well documented on the net.

This is not what I want to do, I was looking for a SIMPLE EASY QUICK BOOST without killing my MPG, not looking for a WINTER project.

 

[mleach72]

If I have to go unlocked I am completely changing to another brand EFI -- S&S options for the BDM are scarce if you can get them and I'm more likely to build my own based off of the Speediuno project that is very well documented on the net.

This is not what I want to do, I was looking for a SIMPLE EASY QUICK BOOST without killing my MPG, not looking for a WINTER project.

On efi Harleys, the amount the computer will adjust is much lower. I think it's something like 8% or so. They say you can change the exhaust or the air cleaner and the computer will adjust, but not both. If the BDM efi will adjust 20%, you might be ok. 20% percent seems like a lot more than would be needed for just an exhaust and cam swap, but that's just a guess.

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

So how much re-wiring did you need to do to convert to wide-band vs narrow band o2 sensors?
Also do you have a part # for the wideband o2 sensors.

I do at home but at work now, but will get them, or if you want you can call s7s and they will give you the part number, as far as wiring goes I think you just have to remove the old connector off the old o2 sensor and use it on new o2 sensor

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I do at home but at work now, but will get them, or if you want you can call s7s and they will give you the part number, as far as wiring goes I think you just have to remove the old connector off the old o2 sensor and use it on new o2 sensor

But with the 37pin Delphi connector on the stock BDM efi unit the pins are set for 12v power and signal ground and signal.
The second signal pin is NOT connected in the 37pin delphi connector in the BDM harness so regardless of what you do at the sensor the extra signal isn't getting to the EFI unit without more work. I doubt that S&S violate the standard pinout to get around this as the pins on a delphi connector are well known and documented.
I await what you find when home.