Before I spend a fortune on a new EFI Controller....

[Chuck3d]

A month or two ago I had my 2007 Bulldog running, but after sitting a few weeks, it wasn't starting, turning over or even giving me the fuel pump noise. The battery was fully charged and all I got on the EHC was the LED for air suspension turning on. I had tried the EHC reset procedure and everything else I could read on these forums. So I decided to go and get the EHC R.I.P. kit. I installed it last night and I'm 90% on my way to a running bike. Now I have all the lights working, engine cranks and I have the fuel pump pressuring up.

What I don't have is spark to the plugs. I have +12 volts running to the red wire of the ignition coil. But when I press the run button, that drops to ~ .12 volts. It may be that I'm using a digital meter and it's possible that the voltage is pulsing, but I'm not sure. I've tested the ignition ciols all the way back to the connector just outside the EFI controller and it stays ~ .12 volts.

Is there some input (like the crank position sensor) that the EFI controller needs to see to send the +12 volts to the ignition coil?

Can I test the crank position sensor by using a led and a 9V battery and seeing if the led lights when metal is passed in front of the sensor?

I'm already losing my hair, so pulling out more isn't helping. But any help you guys have would be more than appreciated!

 

[Mikeinjersey]

The coil doesn't have voltage sent to it from the controller. The coil has 12 volts connected to its primary windings in order to create an electrical field. The signal to trigger the coil front and rear is sent from the crank sensor to the EFI controller which in turn triggers the front or rear side of the coil. When triggered the field collapses across the secondary windings of the coil which increases the voltage enough to arc across the electrodes of the respective spark plugs.
You may have the wires incorrect on your new install. I would go over the instructions again to make sure all looks correct. If you purchased it from bigdogisback I'm sure you can get them to help you.
Try starting it without hitting run first since the voltage is already at the coil maybe it will start.
I attached a procedure to test the crank sensor. Page 15-3

 

[Jwooky]

You should have 12V at the red wire at the coil with key on.

The fuel pump , O2, Injectors all get power from the same relay that is energized from the EFI controller.

If the pump is running, then the coil should have power too.

If not, I would chase that circuit. You could also 12V jump it to see if it is bad and it runs.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

By your description it sounds like there is a short.
The red wire should stay at 12V when the run switch is one.
Disconnect one thing at a time Fuel pump, injectors,o2 sensors that are all powered off relay.

Check that relay is staying on and not going on then right off after a second (bad relay)

 

[Chuck3d]

The coil doesn't have voltage sent to it from the controller. The coil has 12 volts connected to its primary windings in order to create an electrical field. The signal to trigger the coil front and rear is sent from the crank sensor to the EFI controller which in turn triggers the front or rear side of the coil. When triggered the field collapses across the secondary windings of the coil which increases the voltage enough to arc across the electrodes of the respective spark plugs.
You may have the wires incorrect on your new install. I would go over the instructions again to make sure all looks correct. If you purchased it from bigdogisback I'm sure you can get them to help you.
Try starting it without hitting run first since the voltage is already at the coil maybe it will start.
I attached a procedure to test the crank sensor. Page 15-3

Thanks for the troubleshooting pages. I couldn't find a way to test the crank sensor. I read a couple posts here but they referred to a sensor with three wires. I'll go back over all the connections (they're pretty dummy proof) I may have one that is just not fully seated.

 

[Chuck3d]

You should have 12V at the red wire at the coil with key on.

The fuel pump , O2, Injectors all get power from the same relay that is energized from the EFI controller.

If the pump is running, then the coil should have power too.

If not, I would chase that circuit. You could also 12V jump it to see if it is bad and it runs.
View attachment 96654

I was thinking the same thing also. I even swapped the horn relay with the ignition coil one and still no spark. That's what lead me to ask if the red wire going to the ignition coil was pulsing and my digital meter just could read the voltage correctly. I'll check for shorts.

 

[Chuck3d]

By your description it sounds like there is a short.
The red wire should stay at 12V when the run switch is one.
Disconnect one thing at a time Fuel pump, injectors,o2 sensors that are all powered off relay.

Check that relay is staying on and not going on then right off after a second (bad relay)

I'm thinking that a short might be the issue. I swapped relays and still no go.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I'm thinking that a short might be the issue. I swapped relays and still no go.

Process of elimination -- Pull a cable at a time so you know what is bad.

 

[Chuck3d]

So I'm back to thinking that the EFI controller has an issue. All the RIP Kit wires are dummy proof. So that doesn't seem to be the issue. But with more testing and eliminating possible shorts that effect the power to the coil, I found that I indeed have ~4 volts AC running across the crank position sensor when the motor is turning over but I also found that the +12 running through the relay going to the fuel pump, ignition coil, O2 sensors and fuel injectors shuts off after the fuel pump times out or reaches the PSI (not sure which). So when that relay clicks and opens back up, the +12 running across the red wire to the coil shuts off also.

I'm also assuming that the EFI controller is running that relay and without it sending constant power, there's no constant power to all the red wires operating the ignition coil, O2 sensors and fuel injector.

Unless there is a condition that the EFI looks for before it sends constant power to the coil???

As a side note, I can take a spark plug from the coil and even grounding it before the relay (going to the ignition coil, O2 sensors and fuel injector) shuts off and still no spark across the plug. It's as if there isn't a signal coming across the yellow or blue wire from the EFI.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

So I'm back to thinking that the EFI controller has an issue. All the RIP Kit wires are dummy proof. So that doesn't seem to be the issue. But with more testing and eliminating possible shorts that effect the power to the coil, I found that I indeed have ~4 volts AC running across the crank position sensor when the motor is turning over but I also found that the +12 running through the relay going to the fuel pump, ignition coil, O2 sensors and fuel injectors shuts off after the fuel pump times out or reaches the PSI (not sure which). So when that relay clicks and opens back up, the +12 running across the red wire to the coil shuts off also.

I'm also assuming that the EFI controller is running that relay and without it sending constant power, there's no constant power to all the red wires operating the ignition coil, O2 sensors and fuel injector.

Unless there is a condition that the EFI looks for before it sends constant power to the coil???

As a side note, I can take a spark plug from the coil and even grounding it before the relay (going to the ignition coil, O2 sensors and fuel injector) shuts off and still no spark across the plug. It's as if there isn't a signal coming across the yellow or blue wire from the EFI.

That condition would be pressing the start button. You need to check for power at coil/relay when you hit start to be certain.
Also did you disconnect the power to the coil and test if the red stays at 12v?

 

[Chuck3d]

That condition would be pressing the start button. You need to check for power at coil/relay when you hit start to be certain.
Also did you disconnect the power to the coil and test if the red stays at 12v?

I have disconnected the yellow/red/blue connector (that runs to the coil) just as it exits the EFI Controller. There is +12 volts present when the key is turned to on. You can hear (and feel if you're holding it) the relay that runs the pump, O2 and coil. But after the pump has pressure, the relay opens and the 12 volts drops out. At that point I can press the start button and there is still no power across the red wire exiting the EFI. I havent tried to tap that wire and see if it needs the full connection to the coil from all three wires to sense a load.

So I am totally disconnected from the coil when I test to see if the 12 volts drops. I'll tap that line and see if the coil connection is what is missing to keep power exiting the EFI, through the relay to the coil.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Mikeinjersey]

"There is +12 volts present when the key is turned to on. You can hear (and feel if you're holding it) the relay that runs the pump, O2 and coil. But after the pump has pressure, the relay opens and the 12 volts drops out. "

Ok I don't know exactly the logic of the EFI controller either but form what you have stated it makes sense that the relay controls power to the Fuel Pump, Ignition Coil, Front fuel injector, Rear fuel injector and also through a 10amp fuse the Front and Rear Oxygen sensors until the pump pressure is satisfied. Do as JBM suggested and remove each component ( one at a time) and check for the voltage at the coil to drop as you initially stated in Post #1 by hitting the Run button not the start button. If it doesn't drop you found your short. I would pull the 10amp fuse or CB first because it supplies 2 components. If no improvement put it back and move on to the front fuel injector then the rear injector.
In your first post you stated the 12v was always on the coil until you hit the run button. Now you state it does indeed go to O volts after the fuel pump stops. They are conflicting statements. It would seem logical that after the fuel system is primed the Run button would activate the involved components just before hitting the start button because none of the components are needed until the motor is trying to start.

 

[pknowles]

Have you tried just turning the key on and hit start. Don't hit run. Just a thought?

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Ok, try this
Turn on bike
Hit run (Watch for 12v on relay/coil etc)
When it drops off Hit run again
Does it re-prime the pump? ie get 12v briefly? if so you may be right about the efi going since when working properly unless you hit kill it doesn't reprime the fuel pump.

I'd still disconnect things one at a time checking for the short to be safe.
The other thin I'd check just to be thorough is the handle bar switches and make sure its not triggering the KILL switch on its own.


The Following advice comes with NO WARRANTY, its my opinion only and since I'm not there I can't do everything I would before this step.

The other thing I might try is disconnecting the relay and using FUSED jumper run 12V from the battery to the output of the relay (bypass the efi for power to coil,o2,fuel injectors). If that voltage stay stable and doesn't blow the fuse, I'd hit start.

 

[Chuck3d]

"There is +12 volts present when the key is turned to on. You can hear (and feel if you're holding it) the relay that runs the pump, O2 and coil. But after the pump has pressure, the relay opens and the 12 volts drops out. "

Ok I don't know exactly the logic of the EFI controller either but form what you have stated it makes sense that the relay controls power to the Fuel Pump, Ignition Coil, Front fuel injector, Rear fuel injector and also through a 10amp fuse the Front and Rear Oxygen sensors until the pump pressure is satisfied. Do as JBM suggested and remove each component ( one at a time) and check for the voltage at the coil to drop as you initially stated in Post #1 by hitting the Run button not the start button. If it doesn't drop you found your short. I would pull the 10amp fuse or CB first because it supplies 2 components. If no improvement put it back and move on to the front fuel injector then the rear injector.
In your first post you stated the 12v was always on the coil until you hit the run button. Now you state it does indeed go to O volts after the fuel pump stops. They are conflicting statements. It would seem logical that after the fuel system is primed the Run button would activate the involved components just before hitting the start button because none of the components are needed until the motor is trying to start.

I did try the 'remove one component at a time' idea. That did no good. And you're correct in that I stated it two different ways. I've been over so many trouble shooting ideas and trials, that it all gets a little mixed up after a while. My fault.

I did find that if I tap the red wire going to the coil, that I get about 9 volts across that red power wire when I'm pressing the start button and the starter is engaged. I'm not sure if 9 volts is the standard, but it beats .1 volt on that same wire when the connector is disconnected from the EFI and I'm pressing the start button.

 

[Chuck3d]

Ok, try this
Turn on bike
Hit run (Watch for 12v on relay/coil etc)
When it drops off Hit run again
Does it re-prime the pump? ie get 12v briefly? if so you may be right about the efi going since when working properly unless you hit kill it doesn't reprime the fuel pump.

I'd still disconnect things one at a time checking for the short to be safe.
The other thin I'd check just to be thorough is the handle bar switches and make sure its not triggering the KILL switch on its own.


The Following advice comes with NO WARRANTY, its my opinion only and since I'm not there I can't do everything I would before this step.

The other thing I might try is disconnecting the relay and using FUSED jumper run 12V from the battery to the output of the relay (bypass the efi for power to coil,o2,fuel injectors). If that voltage stay stable and doesn't blow the fuse, I'd hit start.

That first and last paragraph is a good idea to try tomorrow. Thanks.

I've removed the housing from the handle bar switch so it's just hanging out in the air. I thought there might be a short from the case to the PCB. Still no spark.

 

[Sven]

Take a sewing needle, the one with the ball at the end. Stab thru the rubber weathepac so you more tap into the ECU's hot pin to the relay. Turn the key on, watch the voltage out of that pin, pump stops and you should see 12v still present. That shuts down, now you call tech on that rip unit.

 

[Jwooky]

Guys look at the schematic I posted. There is only one 12 Volt circuit to all the components I listed.

The EFI controller provides 12V to the ENTIRE circuit for 2 sec to prime the pump then stops it.

It will not power it back up unless the engine is cranking or running. You can’t have the pump off, and power to the coils etc.

This is a safety measure so the pump can’t pump unless the engine is running.

If you want to diagnose the circuit for 12 V just jump the relay, and the entire circuit including the pump will have 12 V.

If during prime it is dropping to 9V you have a bad battery or a serious short.

 

[Jwooky]

Take a sewing needle, the one with the ball at the end. Stab thru the rubber weathepac so you more tap into the ECU's hot pin to the relay. Turn the key on, watch the voltage out of that pin, pump stops and you should see 12v still present. That shuts down, now you call tech on that rip unit.

Nonsense. How can you have 12V and the pump not run.

 

[Sven]

EHC Interface:
T- Relay Control. See where T-T were on the left side I can't read that wording or cutoff words?
U - Direct Power looks like on the left. U- Switched Power 13? Where does that head to? There is where I see 'switch' and that means either on or off and is 13 triggered off somehow? That's direct power out to the 'switch,' if I'm reading that wire diagram and how I see (+) power out is U-left side that is direct from battery. Only way to turn that off is key off.

Again, ball needle on the U direct and once the pump stops, where is 12v on the switch side?
Second pin stabbed on the U side of switched power and does that show 12v cranking the engine over?

Or are we not checking the battery for PUSH? Does the bike crank over steady? Then not the battery.