Well now I know what my next problem is!

[cdogg556]

Recently I replaced the base gaskets on my bike and all seemed fine until yesterday! I think that I screwed up on the torque sequence and didn't give it the extra 1/4 turn after the 18 lbs of torque!

figured since I am tearing the whole thing apart again, might as well go for the 585 cam!

Don't want to hear it from Ker that I am like franco,

all talk for 2 yrs! Lol!

 

[Sven]

I have a top end that wants to explode the head right off the studs. I have crankcase pressure at the base gasket. I had a low torque, head moved, barrel is loose, base gasket is oozing out/plus waking from the under-pressure = Change base gasket over again, received its squish is one time.
Pro: changes all gaskets = No teardowns down the road.
Novice: reuses b-gsk = and takes a chance of another teardown sooner than later.

Decoke the piston dome since it's exposed. Use a brand new straight edge razor, leave no gouges, air blow the chips out of the piston to cylinder gap, or grease the groove, move the piston down to wipe what would have gone down the barrel.

Torque in an X-pattern--5ftlbs increments until reaching spec-add 90° after specific torque (you forgot). At least you found your mistake... good call.

 

[francoblay1]

Do you think that petrol Booster had something to do with it?
You will love the 585. Shit, I did notice huge difference going from 569... you will notice even bigger difference going from 546!!!!

 

[Dakota]

John, Please tell me it ain't so, not more problems. You sure are on a roll!

 

[francoblay1]

This reminded me of Carlos Post....

I know is not the same scenario but my question would be: Would it make a difference to use the mentioned Cometic gaskets instead of stock gaskets (stock motor, only cam changed in our case)?

"Comatic Base Gasket at 0.010 part # C9931(Stock Gaskets are .020) using the Comatic head gasket at .030 part # 9935 (Stock head Gasket is .047 compressed) will bump your compression"

X-2

Decking the Heads .030 and using Comatic Base Gasket at 0.010 part # C9931(Stock Gaskets are .020) using the Comatic head gasket at .030 part # 9935 (Stock head Gasket is .047 compressed) will bump your compression 10.5 to one and still be able to run pump gas. I went that route instead of cutting the jugs. The above is what I have and use the Woods 650 cam. You can certainly run the S & S 600 without any issues. John Sacs is highly recommended to do the head work. I would go with the bigger intake and exhaust valves along with the squish grooves. Those groves are cut in the head to eliminate detonation. You wont be sorry. TRIPLE XXX carbs are great, however, if John Sacs can set your Carb up for the combination you want then I would go to him. One other thing you should consider is the Thunder Heart adjustable timing Ignition module or a different brand just so you can adjust your timing. That in it self will make a big difference. If your going to do it might as well get err done right the first time. :2thumbs:

Carlos

 

[Sven]

Hole he bowel movement, Batman! Did he say, 'cause me headaches?' No, I think he said 'cause for a medic.' Oh no, not pound a few thousand pounds of cylinder pressure and re-torque again? Sheuuuuush, don't tell anyone how hand tight the stud nuts are...pop-pop-fizz-fizz look what a mess you're in... ask me how I know.

Signed,
NOLTT (never over-load the torque) Do the work = short ride and re-torque!... Then it's bulletproof.

 

[pknowles]

I have a top end that wants to explode the head right off the studs. I have crankcase pressure at the base gasket. I had a low torque, head moved, barrel is loose, base gasket is oozing out/plus waking from the under-pressure = Change base gasket over again, received its squish is one time.
Pro: changes all gaskets = No teardowns down the road.
Novice: reuses b-gsk = and takes a chance of another teardown sooner than later.

Decoke the piston dome since it's exposed. Use a brand new straight edge razor, leave no gouges, air blow the chips out of the piston to cylinder gap, or grease the groove, move the piston down to wipe what would have gone down the barrel.

Torque in an X-pattern--5ftlbs increments until reaching spec-add 90° after specific torque (you forgot). At least you found your mistake... good call.

He hasn't mentioned checking ring end gap? Did he change the rings

 

[Sven]

No mention of oil smoke... and enough compression to blow the head gasket out. Rings float in a circle anyway so I'd reuse the rings and no bottle brush crap to upset the smooth sealing effect it has now.

 

[pknowles]

Ok

 

[cdogg556]

Hole he bowel movement, Batman! Did he say, 'cause me headaches?' No, I think he said 'cause for a medic.' Oh no, not pound a few thousand pounds of cylinder pressure and re-torque again? Sheuuuuush, don't tell anyone how hand tight the stud nuts are...pop-pop-fizz-fizz look what a mess you're in... ask me how I know.

Signed,
NOLTT (never over-load the torque) Do the work = short ride and re-torque!... Then it's bulletproof.

Sven, are you saying to re-torque the heads after a short ride? I thought about that but you got to pull the rocker boxes to do that, is that what everyone is doing? Also I agree, we only have 91 octane premium gas here in sunny California and I don't think bumping up the compression is something I want to do, and yea I am changing the base gaskets, head, and rocker box gaskets for both cyliners!

 

[john sachs]

Use a .020" base gasket, and a mls .030" head gasket. Torque 10 , 20, and 90 degrees. (1/4 turn).
The reason you pushed out the head gasket you just installed, was because you didn't go the 1/4 turn after your last torque sequence.
Use new gaskets, and after running or warm up, NEVER re-torque.
Cali 91 octane is equel to most 93 octane at sea level.
John

 

[cdogg556]

Use a .020" base gasket, and a mls .030" head gasket. Torque 10 , 20, and 90 degrees. (1/4 turn).
The reason you pushed out the head gasket you just installed, was because you didn't go the 1/4 turn after your last torque sequence.
Use new gaskets, and after running or warm up, NEVER re-torque.
Cali 91 octane is equel to most 93 octane at sea level.
John

John, if you notice in the pic I also had the head gasket in wrong, I was reading that it should be installed with the wide side towards the cylinder, do you think that also could have contributed to the gasket blowing out?

 

[Sven]

Sven, are you saying to re-torque the heads after a short ride?... pull the rocker boxes to do that...?

Yes, that was the 'Do the work' part of it if cometic is used. I can only go by my buddy who more or less uses said steel gaskets exclusively. The race bike, his two street bikes run cometic. Oil begins to leak on a shakedown ride. "Here, crack this head bolt," he tells me. I take a twist and it came off as if I just used the socket and shaft, it would have spun off without the ratchet wrench. I go to the next stud nut [on the outside of the cam cover] and she is just as loose if not easier to spin off.

I then loosened all the engine bolts for him so he can pop the engine out, pop the top cover off, remove the cam, tighten even the 6mm bolts used for this old honda model. That's 3 bikes with cometic gaskets I know about that needed a retorque.

John goes thru a lot of engines. I can only go by my experience. OEM gaskets are a one torque deal; call my builds [so far] bulletproof; no need to retorque vs the 1000's of miles ridden; how it was treated; and who knows if it's still running... he sold it for the next build. That was the evo. Now comes the shovel and aftmrk head gaskets made by the other harley aftmkt replacement gasket co, but these were paper like the OE or what is in that photo?

The cometics I am discussing are the thin metal sheets stamped out and riveted together of about 3 layers? The paper OE and paper aftmkt gaskets is what John might be talking about as far as one torque plus 90 degrees and you are done. Cometic on the other hand is a double whammy... do the [torque] work over again.

But I think you found you forgot to finish off with the 90. That more or less sounds like what John said was to torque once and forget it. Factory harley models purchased are not saying to come back for a retorque, right? But once someone mentions those steel cometics, that's a redo down the road and a short ride is all it takes before a leak occurs.

 

[Sven]

John, if you notice in the pic I also had the head gasket in wrong...

Look at the dowel pins. Flip the gasket over; will the pins line up or is it offset where the gasket can only be installed one way?

Are we not back to you forgetting the extra 90 degrees?

 

[cdogg556]

Look at the dowel pins. Flip the gasket over; will the pins line up or is it offset where the gasket can only be installed one way?

Are we not back to you forgetting the extra 90 degrees?

yes and yes! they can be flipped over and they still line up no matter what! I completely understand you Sven, that's why I am gonna us the same gaskets and not the cometic ones! Thanks for your help Sven!

 

[cdogg556]

John, Please tell me it ain't so, not more problems. You sure are on a roll!

That's exactly how I feel Dave!

I gotta look at the bright side Dave, if this didn't happen I probably would have waited a long time to install the 585 cam and Ker would never let me hear the end of it!

 

[Th3InfamousI]

Use a .020" base gasket, and a mls .030" head gasket. Torque 10 , 20, and 90 degrees. (1/4 turn).
The reason you pushed out the head gasket you just installed, was because you didn't go the 1/4 turn after your last torque sequence.
Use new gaskets, and after running or warm up, NEVER re-torque.
Cali 91 octane is equel to most 93 octane at sea level.
John

Should they both be a MLS type gasket? Is that the recommendation?

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

 

[Little-Boo]

I never ever reuse head bolts. Most that are torqued so many ft Lbs and then 90 degrees and so on are what is called torque to yield bolts and they stretch. So reusing them will not give you the proper torque the second time around. What I do use and reuse all the time are ARP Studs they are the best you can buy. When I decided to dig into my engine some 7 or so years ago, the first thing I did knowing that I was going to increase my compression was to order some ARP Studs from Fueling Motorcycle engine parts. I had to return a few set until I finally got the right length and when I did all I had to do is torque my heads to 45 Ft Lbs. No more 25 ft lbs 90 degrees here or there. Just flat out Torque at 45 ft lbs.

Knowing a little about engines helps, I used to race a Buick Grand National and went through a ton of head gaskets before I learned about studs and torque to yield bolts. I did the same with my 99 LS1 Camaro and never had a problem with blown head gaskets.

Carlos

 

[cdogg556]

Are these what your talking about Carlos, http://www.feulingparts.com/category/Fasteners/Cylinder Studs And Head Bolts, they definitely are bad ass, I am getting different advise from a few people, some say not to worry about changing them and others say to change them, I am really liking these ARP studs, just a bit pricey for me right now, but I am pretty sure it's the right thing to do!

 

[francoblay1]

Are these what your talking about Carlos, http://www.feulingparts.com/category/Fasteners/Cylinder Studs And Head Bolts, they definitely are bad ass, I am getting different advise from a few people, some say not to worry about changing them and others say to change them, I am really liking these ARP studs, just a bit pricey for me right now, but I am pretty sure it's the right thing to do!

Do it once, do it right !!! It can be more expensive on the long term if you don't!!!