Still having electrical problems

[Tdubb]

Okay, so my electrical problems continue. Last week I washed the bike and afterwards I had no power to the EHC. I was starting disassemble, pull apart connectors,etc and it came back to life. Rode the rest of the day and no issues.

This past week I was getting ready to start doing the dielectric thing and had gotten a couple simple connectors and the battery gave the dreaded click. Had the battery tested and it was fine. Re-installed the battery and all was well. Rode 100 miles Saturday with no issues.

Sunday i decided to take a short ride - around the block so to speak. I came to a stop sign and the bike died - all lights on, etc. I press the run button and no fuel pump sound. I end up tearing things down and then notice all the EHC lights are on. I fiddle with it - disconnect the battery, power on and off and then it comes back to life but the run button will not make the fuel pump energize. I leave to get a trailer and return so I can fire the bike up and ride away with my trailer friend shaking his head.

Okay so I have a few thoughts after reading every word of chapter 13 in the service manual last night and looking at the electrical schematic until my eyes bled.

1. All lights on EHC can indicate a bad ignition switch. If I try real hard I can find a spot between on and off that will cause this condition. This could explain the stalling, but I don't think it explains the others.
2. Could a bad ground cause the all lights on EHC condition and stalling condition?
3. Can a bad VR cause the all lights on EHC and stalling condition?
4. If I can get the run button gremlin to happen again, I will take a volt meter to check continuity when I push the button to rule out the PCB or wire issue.
5. If it's not the run signal I will try and check voltage across the fuel pump motor (+) and motor GND by checking the connector below the fuel tank. I should be getting 5V DC. I need a little help here - this is correct method to troubleshoot an output from the EHC???

Help - bike week is coming!!!

 

[Jwooky]

I'm having some trouble following this, and what you mean be some of the statements at times.

For example you say: "I washed the bike and afterwards I had no power to the EHC"
Does this mean the battery power circuit into the EHC is 0 volts? or do you mean the bike, had no accessory power?

Maybe you can break this down in bullet point in terms of what you did, then what happen.

Few other comments. I am not aware of bad key switch=All ehc lights on. All the key switch does is provide continuity between the signal wire and ground. If you have reason to suspect it, you can simply unplug it, jump between the two wires to eliminate it.

Bad grounds can cause all kinds of havoc, and erratic behavior. As a practice you should locate and carefully inspect all grounds are clean and tight (including the crimps).

Also, how was the battery tested? was it load tested, and if so, what was the load, what was the voltage before test and under load?

The rotor/stator/voltage regulator are responsible for charging battery. There are simple procedures in other threads to verify and eliminate as well. Doesn't sound like that is your issue.

The fuel pump is 12v not 5v also. Again, don't think that is your issue.

Try a more systematic approach, starting and eliminate things.

I believe you may have a battery or ground issue, or you may have a failing EHC, but don't just assume that, eliminate everything else first.

 

[Tdubb]

For example you say: "I washed the bike and afterwards I had no power to the EHC"
Does this mean the battery power circuit into the EHC is 0 volts? or do you mean the bike, had no accessory power?

When I turned on the key - no power. No lights, speedo, etc. I looked at the EHC and no LED's were on. After fiddling with various things I decided to disconnect the EHC cables and add dielectric. I unbolted the EHC from the frame and it sprang to life. No issues for several days.

Few other comments. I am not aware of bad key switch=All ehc lights on.

There is a service bulletin that states if the EHC see an interruption from the ignition of 20ms or more all the LED's come on except the PC linked LED. They reference a bad ignition switch as an example of a possible cause. I'm pretty sure that I've also seen that in chapter 13. You can recreate it by simply turning off your ignition switch - all LED's go on for about a 1/2 second except the PC Linked LED.

Also, how was the battery tested? was it load tested, and if so, what was the load, what was the voltage before test and under load?

I had the battery tested at the Harley dealer on their test bench. Not sure their testing parameters, but it's about a 40minute test. It tested good.

The fuel pump is 12v not 5v also. Again, don't think that is your issue.

You are correct. I wasn't thinking. The 5v is the output voltage of the EHC signal. All components receive 12V from one of the EHC buses. Actually the fuel pump gets its voltage from the EFI controller.

Here is what I was getting at in regards to the fuel pump wiring.

Problem: I hit the run button and the fuel pump doesn't energize (I can't hear it).

Observations:
1. I turn on ignition switch and power is good - lights, tach etc. EHC power LED is on, EHC controller on LED is flashing.
2. Press run button - no sound from fuel pump.
3. The check engine light doesn't turn off (it normally does a few seconds after I press the run button: after I hear the fuel pump energize).
4. If I hit start, the starter will turn over, but not start (I have no fuel).
5. If I hit off button then when I hit start button, the starter will not turn over.

Conclusion:
1. It appears that the fuel pump is not getting a signal to energize.

Comments/Questions:
1. I can't do anymore troubleshooting because the bike is now operating normally.
2. If this happens again, I can check the fuel pump harness with my voltmeter by checking for 12V across the fuel pump motor (+) and motor GND contacts at the JST connector correct?

In the meantime,since I can not troubleshoot a properly running dog, I will clean and check each ground connection and work my way through all connectors, clean them with contact cleaner, fill the female ends with dielectric grease and reconnect. Anyone have other thoughts or advice?

Also, I know where the starter and battery grounds are, but what about the grounds for the EFI controller, O2 sensors and fuel pump? The schematic shows them to each have a ground. Where are those grounds located? I haven't started to trace it down yet and maybe someone can save me the legwork.

 

[ground pounder]

Check all of your crimps on the wires going to the battery and then check the crimps on all the grounds to the frame by the battery box. check your voltage regulator by putting your meter on the battery posts. You should get around 14.4 volts while running. If you raise the rpms and the voltage goes way up or is not up to that voltage you have a bad regulator or problem with the charging system!!!

 

[Jwooky]

The EHC LED's all lighting up, must be from a power up/down routine, not for switch diagnostics. Same thing it does by cycling the power to it.

The fuel pump, O2 sensors, injectors, all get power from the relay (which is same as horn btw for an easy swap). The load side of that circuit comes from the 25a breaker next to the 40a for the VR. The 25a breaker is another item to check. The control side gets power from EHC, the ground side from the EFI module.

Next time this happens, you can diagnose by grounding the relay control black wire to confirm the EFI side, then applying power to the red wire on the relay control positive side.

The signal side of O2's ground back to the EFI controller. The heater side and fuel pump ground to frame, but I can't remember where. Underseat I think. Pins 10 and 28 ground the EFI module.

You mention that the check engine light did not go off. This is an important clue. This likely means you have an active fault.

You need to get protune set up on a laptop and read the fault. In fact you likely have that fault stored in history as an inactive fault and can help figure out whats going on.

 

[Tdubb]

You need to get protune set up on a laptop and read the fault. In fact you likely have that fault stored in history as an inactive fault and can help figure out whats going on.

Where would I be able to get protune software?

And thanks for all the great help!:2thumbs:

 

[Sven]

I washed the bike.
I was battling a vapor trail off the contact points.
I battled a Phantom of a drop on something hot and something not was to flip the flop.

How so? If I am normally closed like the key switch, you sprayed under the switch and made me normally turn on. How so? Say for argument sake we land on a micro guitar. Say the strings all have their own ground. Say your washing accumulated enough of a drop to what was on is not grounded on that drop on the string to string that were normally not touching, nor grounded as a partner.

Said another way, ground is ground so if my wash drop landed on a 5v signal and the ground strings were a 12 and a 5v ground and one grounded on a ground? So ground is a given for both 12 and 5, yes? Yes. So, is it possible a wash to sun dried contacts restart the bike and not your look out it was a perfect snowflake and now start disrupting the.... Hey, go chase the PHantom.

Get it? PH? LOL

No need to go out and waste your money on a bike that runs are you kidding me?

 

[Sven]

I turn the key on my jobber, and that says whoever is wire in and wire out is a bulb, a winker flasher, a jobber doing something between wires.

That's 12v for argument sake. An on off switch is the given is the bulb.
That's 12v tied to a chip so the conversion is down to 5v and that says 3rd wire has 5v.
That says 5v has a steady voltage, a wire to ground or the next injector over is ground until it hits ground and the wire into the computer makes 3.

See both wiring ground color/codes? Where 12v is the ground color and the 5v would have a dual color type code for grounds.

Something like that so easiest ground is the injector wires. If both injectors have the same color wire = Ground. If on has orange and the other green and for argument sake are the colors, then you can recognize front and rear, and ground is both is the basic wiring between 5 and 12v in the generic diagnostic chase of it.

 

[Jwooky]

You can download from S&S.

S&S Cycle :: Software

 

[Tdubb]

New development: I disconnected the battery and then disconnected the two EHC connectors. Cleaned them with contact cleaner and toothbrush. I also cleaned the fuel pump connector under the tank. I filled all with dielectric grease and then reconnected everything. I had removed the EHC from its pan location so I could get at the connector allens easier. I reconnected the battery and turned on the key. It powered up and then 3 seconds later all assessor use turned off and the EHC lights all came on except the PC linked and memory check. I moved the the EHC back into its pan location and all is well. I tried to wiggle the cables and cannot repeat it. I move the EHC and it will repeat this issue.

Ideas? Seems like it's a bad cable, but can't repeat it by wiggling harness by EHC.

 

[Tdubb]

New development: I disconnected the battery and then disconnected the two EHC connectors. Cleaned them with contact cleaner and toothbrush. I also cleaned the fuel pump connector under the tank. I filled all with dielectric grease and then reconnected everything. I had removed the EHC from its pan location so I could get at the connector allens easier. I reconnected the battery and turned on the key. It powered up and then 3 seconds later all assessor use turned off and the EHC lights all came on except the PC linked and memory check. I moved the the EHC back into its pan location and all is well. I tried to wiggle the cables and cannot repeat it. I move the EHC and it will repeat this issue.

Ideas? Seems like it's a bad cable, but can't repeat it by wiggling harness by EHC.

I'm an idiot. My version of EHC has a lean bank angle sensor. It shuts of all power and lights up all the LED's.

 

[FrankBDPS]

You're not an idiot. You are learning the ins and outs of you're motorcycle. Next time you have an issue you will have the knowledge to deal with the problem. Unless you are like me and have CRS syndrome.(can't remember shit) good luck!

 

[Tdubb]

Next time this happens, you can diagnose by grounding the relay control black wire to confirm the EFI side, then applying power to the red wire on the relay control positive side.

You're saying run a jumper from the relay black wire terminal to negative pole on the battery and running a jumper from the positive pole on the battery to the red side of the relay coil correct?

Couldn't I just check for resistance on the contact (the other two red wires)? That would tell me if the relay was working or not I think. If it is then I could check if power is getting to the fuel pump.???

Basically my theory now is that it was the connector under the tank to the fuel pump. That connector's prongs had some corrosion. I cleaned them up and filled it with dielectric. Too early to tell. I'm hitting all connections - cleaning and loading up w dielectric grease. The EHC connectors were completly dry - hardly any grease at all.

 

[Jwooky]

I am describing a process to help root cause and narrow down the source of the issue.

If the pump is not running and you ground the negative side of the coil and it runs, it tells you that the issue is either that circuit or the EFI module itself.

If nothing changes, and next you apply power to the positive side of the coil and it runs, it would tell you that circuit, or the EHC is an issue.

 

[BadDawg Bill]

OLD SCHOOL wiring..... Get er done :up: