WTF!!! Opinions Please!

[Utopiapga]

I am ready to pull out the last bit of hair I have left!:angry:

Got the list done ready to roll and I go out down the road and damn thing is slipping slightly still under hard throttle. So back to the garage I go and try to adjust it up a bit. Long story short after a few trial and errors I slam the freakin ramp assembly shut!!!:bang:

So now off comes the exhaust then into the ramp assembly. Sure enough slammed shut. Got it loose then put it back together and tried to adjust it up again. Better but still not right!:loony:

No matter what I do just not right! So now I notice cable just not right on lever. So I take it apart to so to make sure that is right. Find out the clamp has the little set screw gone and cable has slid out of clamp. So I go on a search for a little ass set screw!:loony: Of course can't find one so I go to work and tap out a little bigger hole and find one that will work at work.

So think I am good to go now! Wrong, get home put everything back together and try to adjust it up then BAM! The freakin ball and ramp assembly slams shut again on me!!!!!!!!!:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

I am on my last straw with this thought I had it when I changed the pressure plate and the clutch hub nut. I have NEVER had this much trouble trying to adjust a freakin clutch. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

 

[bigdogtech01]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like an ongoing problem that I had suggested replacing the clutch pack and pressure plate before...Yes?

 

[Utopiapga]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like an ongoing problem that I had suggested replacing the clutch pack and pressure plate before...Yes?

Yes your right Andrew but I replaced the Pressure Plate and everything was good. Then because I didn't think I was going to do anymore riding this year I changed the Clutch hub nut that they gave me as well. I did all the checking on the plates when I had it apart and they where way within specs! Not much wear at all on them and like I said was running good after pressure plate install.

Then I noticed a small issue with the cable sliding loose in the lever as to why after a while it would seem like it was slipping a bit again. I don't know it is still very frustrating! Ever since I snapped the clutch cable it has not been the same!

How the fuck can it go from running great able to pull like crazy to now no matter what I do have slipping issues under hard twisting of the throttle. If I roll into it and shift at low RPM's all the way thru pulls just fine. Just don't get it and when I try to adjust it better I end up slamming the ramp assembly shut.

Its not my first rodeo and I have done this a 100 times with no problems is why I just don't get it!

 

[Utopiapga]

This is what I am fighting! The ball and ramp assembly will not open all the way. This is the most play I can get out of it so I am behind to start with. The old cable I could open all the way up with no problem!

 

[Utopiapga]

Ok so everyone thought I was nuts :loony: when I said I thought the cable was wrong. Well guess what that is wtf it is!!!!!!!!!:angry:

Look at the pics below this is why I could not get the full range of motion from the ball and ramp assembly!:bang: So with this cable on now even if I set it up just perfect it would still not go back to closing all the way hence the reason it is still slightly slipping!

Obviously the shorter one is the one I have on there now..........

 

[Viking]

Ha, call Curtis and get a new one, problem solved ! :2thumbs:

 

[francoblay1]

Ha, call Curtis and get a new one, problem solved ! :2thumbs:

:iagree:

 

[bigdogtech01]

Yes you are correct, the internal length of cable needs to be correct, not just external length.
As far as clutch goes, if you needed to replace the pressure plate due to it being worn, I can almost guarantee you that the pack is worn out of spec. It's not just a visual inspection on it. You have to take all the friction disks, clean oil off them, put them in a stack, and measure the entire thickness of the friction plates. Not just one. You also want to check the steels for any sharp edges, bluing.

 

[Utopiapga]

Yes you are correct, the internal length of cable needs to be correct, not just external length.
As far as clutch goes, if you needed to replace the pressure plate due to it being worn, I can almost guarantee you that the pack is worn out of spec. It's not just a visual inspection on it. You have to take all the friction disks, clean oil off them, put them in a stack, and measure the entire thickness of the friction plates. Not just one. You also want to check the steels for any sharp edges, bluing.

Andrew I did that! I went thru every single one of the plates and measured them they where all within specs! They where all .75 or better! This is why I did not change the pack and Baker suggested the Pressure Plate first since I did see .25 of wear on the plate and a sharp edge all the way around it.

This is why I am so frustrated cause I have covered everything with a fine tooth comb and it may all along just be the damn cable not letting the ball and ramp assembly have its full range of motion especially when you start adjusting it and taking up the slack it will close even more and let the ramp roll up on the ball bearings and make it slip!

As I stated from the very start of all this the bike ran like a champ and not a little bit of a sign of slipping of the clutch what so ever right before the clutch cable broke. The wear on the plates and the pressure plate are not going to just start slipping. There should be a gradual progression and not just one day start slipping like that unless something was not right. I work in manufacturing and build electric motors from the ground up and there is a progression to everything that is built and there is always a rhyme or reason why something doesn't work or won't start but when one of my motors quits working I know its from a failure somewhere and not just because it started to show some wear.

Ok so rant over wanna thank everyone for there opinions once again and hopefully we all can learn from everyone's personal experiences here so we can help each other in the long run. Hopefully this will do the trick and I will order one from Curtis asap and not even mess with the other place that I got the wrong one from.:2thumbs:

Thanks!

 

[bigdogtech01]

Andrew I did that! I went thru every single one of the plates and measured them they where all within specs! They where all .75 or better! This is why I did not change the pack and Baker suggested the Pressure Plate first since I did see .25 of wear on the plate and a sharp edge all the way around it.

This is why I am so frustrated cause I have covered everything with a fine tooth comb and it may all along just be the damn cable not letting the ball and ramp assembly have its full range of motion especially when you start adjusting it and taking up the slack it will close even more and let the ramp roll up on the ball bearings and make it slip!

As I stated from the very start of all this the bike ran like a champ and not a little bit of a sign of slipping of the clutch what so ever right before the clutch cable broke. The wear on the plates and the pressure plate are not going to just start slipping. There should be a gradual progression and not just one day start slipping like that unless something was not right. I work in manufacturing and build electric motors from the ground up and there is a progression to everything that is built and there is always a rhyme or reason why something doesn't work or won't start but when one of my motors quits working I know its from a failure somewhere and not just because it started to show some wear.

Ok so rant over wanna thank everyone for there opinions once again and hopefully we all can learn from everyone's personal experiences here so we can help each other in the long run. Hopefully this will do the trick and I will order one from Curtis asap and not even mess with the other place that I got the wrong one from.:2thumbs:

Thanks!

Now don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you understand what I'm talking about with the clutch spec and measuring it. You do have the 12 plate clutch correct? If so, you need to measure the ALL of the friction plates TOGETHER. Not one at a time. And I'm confused with the numbers you just gave. .75" is 3/4" and .25" is 1/4"....what are you measuring
I know the cable is giving you problems now, but I can tell you, that clutch is most likely bad.
You also want to check the clutch spring dome height. If it's not at least .050", it will slip!!!
I'm just trying to help you out. If it was me, I would save myself the headache and not only buy a new cable, but also a new clutch pack for $190.

 

[Utopiapga]

Now don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you understand what I'm talking about with the clutch spec and measuring it. You do have the 12 plate clutch correct? If so, you need to measure the ALL of the friction plates TOGETHER. Not one at a time. And I'm confused with the numbers you just gave. .75" is 3/4" and .25" is 1/4"....what are you measuring
I know the cable is giving you problems now, but I can tell you, that clutch is most likely bad.
You also want to check the clutch spring dome height. If it's not at least .050", it will slip!!!
I'm just trying to help you out. If it was me, I would save myself the headache and not only buy a new cable, but also a new clutch pack for $190.

Sorry but that was supposed to be .075 and .025 and yes I understand what you are saying about the dome height. I appreciate your help and opinion but I am not one to just throw money at something and hope that fixes it. As stated there is a rhyme and reason for everything and I will get to the bottom of it and if it ends up being the clutch pack too then I will get one and probably go to the Bandit Clutch if and when I do...........:2thumbs:

 

[Utopiapga]

FYI the Manual states that each plate should measure around .090 and that in order to consider any undo wear at all the tolerance is at least .020. The .075 was just an average of what each plate measured and most of them where around .080 with no blueing or sharp edges or discoloration at all to them is why I did not feel it was the clutch pack and is why Baker as well suggested the Pressure Plate and Hub Nut because this is where they have been having the issues well before the packs go bad.

Just telling you what Baker said............

 

[bigdogtech01]

FYI the Manual states that each plate should measure around .090 and that in order to consider any undo wear at all the tolerance is at least .020. The .075 was just an average of what each plate measured and most of them where around .080 with no blueing or sharp edges or discoloration at all to them is why I did not feel it was the clutch pack and is why Baker as well suggested the Pressure Plate and Hub Nut because this is where they have been having the issues well before the packs go bad.

Just telling you what Baker said............

I still feel like your not understanding what I'm talking about. And what manual are you using?
Yours being a 2006 should have a 12 plate clutch, unless someone has put a newer style 9 plate in it..?

If a 12 plate clutch, the spec is measuring the stack height of the fiber plates at 1.960" with a wear limit of .010" total stack height. In other words, if you measure the stack height and you get 1.940", your .010" out of spec.

A 9 plate clutch has stack height of the fiber only of minimum .845" any less is out of spec.

So just to make sure you know what I'm talking about, your not measuring just one plate at a time, it's all 12 or all 9 at same time. And they have to be cleaned of all oils.

Also, if that pressure plate was worn .025", your clutch is worn as well. Trust me, I have been working on these a long time. Like I said before, just trying to help you.

 

[Utopiapga]

I still feel like your not understanding what I'm talking about. And what manual are you using?
Yours being a 2006 should have a 12 plate clutch, unless someone has put a newer style 9 plate in it..?

If a 12 plate clutch, the spec is measuring the stack height of the fiber plates at 1.960" with a wear limit of .010" total stack height. In other words, if you measure the stack height and you get 1.940", your .010" out of spec.

A 9 plate clutch has stack height of the fiber only of minimum .845" any less is out of spec.



So just to make sure you know what I'm talking about, your not measuring just one plate at a time, it's all 12 or all 9 at same time. And they have to be cleaned of all oils.

Also, if that pressure plate was worn .025", your clutch is worn as well. Trust me, I have been working on these a long time. Like I said before, just trying to help you.

I know brother not trying to argue with you I do have the 12 plate pack. And yes if you look at the 2005-2006 manual it gives you the individual plate thicknesses. I know what you are saying about the total stack height. I did that as well and was in specs.

Anyway man I did what you said and then some so we will see how it comes out.

Thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Utopiapga]

Also to Matt at Baker also told me to measure each plate this way cause sometimes the upper gear plates wear quicker.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[bearman]

I replaced the 12 plate in my 2006 Mastiff with a 9 plate. I find that the 9 plate is easier to adjust for me. I also found out that the fiber plates were the exact same in both clutch packs, it was just the steels that were different, (they are thicker ). When you check your discs, the main thing you should check for is that they are absolutely flat. If your clutch plates are not flat you will never get it adjusted so that it will work.

I understand what Andrew is talking about with the factory specs but I think there are some typo’s in some of the manual specs.

I think what Andrew is saying is that the spring on the clutch has a limited range of clamping ability, and if yours is outside of this limit, it will slip.

UPDATE:

OK, I just educated myself on this baker clutch (or at least I think I did), If I am wrong someone just let me know.

The 2008 service manual says the diaphragm spring dome height range of operation is 0.010” to 0.050”, meaning that if you start with less than this it will bind before completely disengaging and if you start with more it won’t completely engage (clamp the discs).

This is a service limit of only 0.04” BUT that is only if you start out with a 0.010” measurement (this gets bigger as your clutch wears), so if you start with a 0.030” measurement you only have 0.020” of clutch wear before you get to the 0.050” max measurement and your clutch will likely start slipping. This is a very small range to work with but once you get it right it will probably last for 10,000 miles, that is, if you get it right.

I think this may be where the problem is for most people that are having trouble adjusting their clutch or having slipping issues.

I don’t see any possible way to get the required range without shimming, or putting in different thickness steels to get this dimension. I suppose you could just go back with all new spring, pressure plate, and clutch pack, but what if it’s still out of spec?

MISLEADING INFO ABOUNDS

2005/6 manual gives Clutch Pack installed height as 1.960”+-003". But then lists discs as
1@ .120” base steel
11@.045” thin steels
12@ .09” fiber discs
1@ 0.080” outside steel
On my calculator this only adds up to 1.775”, And by the way, none of my fiber discs, (new or old) measured more than 0.085”

2005/6 manual also says max wear limit on a fiber disc is 0.0085”, so that times 12 =.102”, so it appears from the 2005/6 manual the clutch pack has a serviceable range of 0.102”, which is 2 and a half times what the range of the spring is.

2007 MANUAL doesn’t give a pack measurement, just says “NOTE: If clutch pack replacement is necessary the clutch pack comes as a prepared assembly, it is not necessary to measure pack height or add shims to increase/decrease diaphragm spring height”.

2008 Manual says same but does give a minimum measurement of 0.845” for fiber plate only stack (doesn’t say how many fiber discs there are). And also gives a 0.006” warpage limit for the steels. If you divide 0.845” by 12 you get 0.0742”per plate, which is much thinner than the 0.090”-0.0085”=0.0815” minimum from 2005/6 manual. But it also says “it is not necessary to measure pack height or add shims to increase/decrease diaphragm spring height”

GOOD INFO IN THE MANUALS

All the manuals say that when you can no longer see the segments on the fiber portion of the plates, they need to be replaced. I don’t do it for a living, but I been working on my own clutches for 38 years and this is the one way I use to tell if a fiber disc needs replacing.

More good advice from the manuals: Check the teeth and splines on not just the plates but also on the hub and basket. I think we have had more than one member here have a grooved basket that caused his clutch problems.

If I wanted to see if it’s the adjustment that is making it slip, first I would find a downhill freeway on-ramp to a several mile long straightaway, then I would pull to the side on the top of the on-ramp and adjust the cable really really loose, so loose that pulling in the lever doesn’t operate the clutch. Then I would start it in gear (this is where the downhill helps), bang shift it to high gear, gas on it and see if it still slips. As long as the pushrod is adjusted correctly and not touching the throw-out bearing, then if it slips you know it is not in the adjustment but in the clutch itself.

So there, that’s my opinion.

 

[Utopiapga]

Thanks Bearman!! That is what I have been checking and looking at all along very good write up!

Oh and FYI I did check the fiber plates and the steel plates for warping by taking each one and laying them down on a mirror I have to make sure they are perfectly flat.

Thanks again for all the great info from you and Andrew!!!