Anyone with an EFI K-9 and a 585 cam

[Mastiff Rider64]

The stock S&S O2 sensors are already wide band, and the VFI is self tuning also.

It is correct the OEM locked version only has a 20% range. Unlocked unlimited.

I am not sure if that’s enough for the cam or not.

Not from what Erik and S&S said. The VFI is self learning within the 20 percent range, but after cam, pipes, air breather you are now outside that 20 percent and will throw up codes and go into limp mode. But to go beyond the 20 percent you need a unlocked VFI, then a map installed, S&S will make you one once you tell them what all you have done to the bike it may not be perfect but it is close. Then you can either have the self learn on or off with an unlocked VFI. As far as the o2 sensors, talk to Erik, the stock o2 sensors are 3 wire I believe and the wide band are 4 wire. I talked with Erik and S&S for a while on all the problems I was having after changing these parts out and finally bit the bullet and bought the unlocked VFI, wide band o2 sensors, throttle position sensor, MAF sensor, engine temp sensor, injectors was done by Ross cycles in 2018-2019 so they said (even tho I just replaced both again this week) and paid for my local shop to dial all of it in, because I had went outside the 20 percent and my bike went into limp mode. I think I even have an old post on here with the picture of the fault codes. and where Erik told me I would have to go to wide band o2 sensors and unlocked VFI to get the bike out of limp mode if I didn't want to change everything back to stock. If these bikes come with them, why would he tell me I need other ones?

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

But with the 37pin Delphi connector on the stock BDM efi unit the pins are set for 12v power and signal ground and signal.
The second signal pin is NOT connected in the 37pin delphi connector in the BDM harness so regardless of what you do at the sensor the extra signal isn't getting to the EFI unit without more work. I doubt that S&S violate the standard pinout to get around this as the pins on a delphi connector are well known and documented.
I await what you find when home.

IDK, I bought everything I needed from Erik except VFI and o2 sensors. I got those directly from S&S, they sent my shop everything drop shipped. but I do know if I put my stock o2 sensors back in I get the check engine light not 30 seconds after running. Change them back to wide band and do my reset on the faults and the check engine light don't come back on. I had to change them out once cause 1 of the wide bands went bad after running some octane boost thru a tank of gas. So Erik told me to try to change both back to the stock o2 sensors to get me by till I could get 2 new ones from S&S.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Not from what Erik and S&S said. The VFI is self learning within the 20 percent range, but after cam, pipes, air breather you are now outside that 20 percent and will throw up codes and go into limp mode. But to go beyond the 20 percent you need a unlocked VFI, then a map installed, S&S will make you one once you tell them what all you have done to the bike it may not be perfect but it is close. Then you can either have the self learn on or off with an unlocked VFI. As far as the o2 sensors, talk to Erik, the stock o2 sensors are 3 wire I believe and the wide band are 4 wire. I talked with Erik and S&S for a while on all the problems I was having after changing these parts out and finally bit the bullet and bought the unlocked VFI, wide band o2 sensors, throttle position sensor, MAF sensor, engine temp sensor, injectors was done by Ross cycles in 2018-2019 so they said (even tho I just replaced both again this week) and paid for my local shop to dial all of it in, because I had went outside the 20 percent and my bike went into limp mode. I think I even have an old post on here with the picture of the fault codes. and where Erik told me I would have to go to wide band o2 sensors and unlocked VFI to get the bike out of limp mode if I didn't want to change everything back to stock. If these bikes come with them, why would he tell me I need other ones?

Stock O2 sensors are 4 wire +12v heater, ground heater, Signal, Signal ground

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

Stock O2 sensors are 4 wire +12v heater, ground heater, Signal, Signal ground
View attachment 101086

my bad then, thought it was mentioned a while back the difference was 3 wire verses 4 wire, so undoubtable the difference is in the o2 sensor itself. Good news for you then is that you shouldn't have to rewire anything if the plugs are the same, but i don't remember if they are or not. Its been a while since I did all this, I'd have to look up or find that post from when I was having the codes come up, and that would have been between 2018 and 2021. But seems it was more closer to the middle of 2019. I remember the shop had my bike like for 6 weeks or so.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

my bad then, thought it was mentioned a while back the difference was 3 wire verses 4 wire, so undoubtable the difference is in the o2 sensor itself. Good news for you then is that you shouldn't have to rewire anything if the plugs are the same, but i don't remember if they are or not. Its been a while since I did all this, I'd have to look up or find that post from when I was having the codes come up, and that would have been between 2018 and 2021. But seems it was more closer to the middle of 2019. I remember the shop had my bike like for 6 weeks or so.

But the problem is that wide band sensor from every reference I have read, have 2 signal wires. They may have a groound or let the body of the sensor against exhaust work as the ground. The problem then is that there is ONLY 1 wire connected to the EFI unit that goes to a sensor pin -- The standard wide band pins on a 36pin delphi connector are N/A on our Big Dog Wiring harness , so I wonder how the second sensor input gets to the EFI unit. Rewiring (adding 2 pins to the 37 pin delphi connector that are blank wouold be required based on all I have read.)
The only other way is inserting an extra box between the wideband sensor and the efi to adapt the voltage levels and deal with the extra signal line.

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

But the problem is that wide band sensor from every reference I have read, have 2 signal wires. They may have a groound or let the body of the sensor against exhaust work as the ground. The problem then is that there is ONLY 1 wire connected to the EFI unit that goes to a sensor pin -- The standard wide band pins on a 36pin delphi connector are N/A on our Big Dog Wiring harness , so I wonder how the second sensor input gets to the EFI unit. Rewiring (adding 2 pins to the 37 pin delphi connector that are blank wouold be required based on all I have read.)
The only other way is inserting an extra box between the wideband sensor and the efi to adapt the voltage levels and deal with the extra signal line.

I know that the o2 sensors on my bike are 4 wire, they came from S&S, and are wideband sensors, I know that I had recently called when my fuel injector cracked and was spraying gas out of it to speak to them about the unlocked VFI, o2 sensors and injectors, because my bike was skipped and only running on 1 cylinder at low speeds before I knew injector was cracked. Seems like I spoke with Jason at S&S, but he looked up the o2 sensors I needed, told me the part number and told me they were wideband and that I may have to change the connector where it plugged into factory harness, because he didn't have a diagram of a bigdog connector, so I took a picture of mine and sent it to him. He said it should plug right in and work fine. Now I don't know if the unlocked VFI has an extra pin or whatever or if it only uses one signal or anything like that because honestly that what the mechanic at the shop i use is for. lol. But he is a certified S&S pro-tuner mechanic so I let him worry about all that, the shop I use, did years ago sell Bigdogs and was or still are a certified bigdog service center. Since your in SC I will tell you the shops name it is C&C Thunder in Cowpens SC, the mechanic's name is Joe, and their number is 864-463-7433. He maybe able to answer detailed questions like the pin 37 not being there or connected or at least explain how it works, or S&S can if you want to try them since they are the ones who really designed the whole EFI system on bigdogs anyway. But if you ever want or need to use them for anything, just let me know and heck you can crash at the house or I can point you to a few good hotels if you prefer up in the area, I'll take you and introduce you to the guys there if your up this way/

 

[Jwooky]

I literally just replaced my O2’s and had this conversation with S&S. Secondly, you can’t have a self tuning ECU without wide band sensors.

 

[Jwooky]

Not from what Erik and S&S said. The VFI is self learning within the 20 percent range, but after cam, pipes, air breather you are now outside that 20 percent and will throw up codes and go into limp mode. But to go beyond the 20 percent you need a unlocked VFI, then a map installed, S&S will make you one once you tell them what all you have done to the bike it may not be perfect but it is close. Then you can either have the self learn on or off with an unlocked VFI. As far as the o2 sensors, talk to Erik, the stock o2 sensors are 3 wire I believe and the wide band are 4 wire. I talked with Erik and S&S for a while on all the problems I was having after changing these parts out and finally bit the bullet and bought the unlocked VFI, wide band o2 sensors, throttle position sensor, MAF sensor, engine temp sensor, injectors was done by Ross cycles in 2018-2019 so they said (even tho I just replaced both again this week) and paid for my local shop to dial all of it in, because I had went outside the 20 percent and my bike went into limp mode. I think I even have an old post on here with the picture of the fault codes. and where Erik told me I would have to go to wide band o2 sensors and unlocked VFI to get the bike out of limp mode if I didn't want to change everything back to stock. If these bikes come with them, why would he tell me I need other ones?

It will not go into “limp mode” , it will throw a fault for front and or rear cylinder “bad sites” and turn on the MIL.

I have never seen or heard one with 3 wire or narrower band O2’s

Mine and all I’ve seen, including the schematic are 4 wire wide band.

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

It will not go into “limp mode” , it will throw a fault for front and or rear cylinder “bad sites” and turn on the MIL.

I have never seen or heard one with 3 wire or narrower band O2’s

Mine and all I’ve seen, including the schematic are 4 wire wide band.

If you read earlier post, between Mike and I, I said I misunderstood what was explained to me about 3 and 4 wire sensor. But I was told by Erik my factory o2 sensors were not wide band. Thats why I bought new ones from S&S, and holding them up to old o2 sensors they aren't the same.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

It will not go into “limp mode” , it will throw a fault for front and or rear cylinder “bad sites” and turn on the MIL.

I have never seen or heard one with 3 wire or narrower band O2’s

Mine and all I’ve seen, including the schematic are 4 wire wide band.

Here are examples of 4wire narrowband sensors

O2 Sensor, 4-wire Narrow Band, High Quality

4-wire, High Quality Narrow band Oxygen Sensor. Standard Threads 18mm x 1.5, substitute for any Bosch or NTK sensor.

store.034motorsport.com

Denso Narrowband o2 Sensor with 18mm x 1.5

Denso Narrowband o2 Sensor with 18mm x 1.5

www.driftmotion.com

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From https://www.dynojet.com/blog/narrowband-vs-wideband-o2-sensors

Narrowband Sensors: The Guessing Game of Fuel Tuning

Narrowband sensors only know three things: lean, rich and stoich. Depending on the oxygen content it reads in the exhaust it sends a signal between 0 and 1 volt. 0 means too lean and 1 means too rich. The ECU, not knowing how far from stoich it is, overcorrects from lean to rich over and over until it eventually gets closer to stoich. The ECU determines where the closed loop is and where the narrowband sensors are active to be able to make these adjustments.

What our tunes do is optimize your air/fuel ratio outside of the closed loop, so even when the narrowbands aren’t active your bike can still be running close to optimal conditions. We also tune the closed loop area to ensure it’s running at stoich, this keeps the bike from needing to ‘learn’ over time to stay tuned accurately.

Narrowbands are excellent when it comes to finding 14.7:1, but they aren’t nearly as accurate when air/fuel reaches either side of this ratio.

Wideband Sensors: Supreme Tuning Capability

Wideband sensors are built for pinpoint accuracy. They send voltage to the ECU on a scale of 1 to 5 so that it knows exactly what is required to maintain target air/fuel ratios. No more guesswork. This also helps your ECU stay more accurate over time with smooth changes instead of the over corrections that narrowband sensors require.

Wideband sensors also open up the entire fuel table to the closed loop. This gives you absolute accuracy of air/fuel ratio at all times, even when you’re pushing your engine to its limits.

This is why nearly all tuning professionals use strictly wideband sensors. It not only gives more control than a narrowband sensor could ever accomplish, but it also gives the tuner a wider range of accurate information under any drive conditions nearly every time.
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from https://www.hhokitsdirect.com/pages/how-to-discover-if-you-have-wideband-or-narrowband-o2-sensors

MANUAL VERIFICATION
LOCATE SENSOR WIRE:

If none of these options are available, you'll need to locate the oxygen senor and then locate the signal
wire by testing. The sensor can have 2, 3 or 4 wires (some can have 5 or 6- these are rare), and you have to know which one is the signal wire. The most common configuration for modern cars is 4 wires.

If you have 4 wires they will be:
" Heater 12 Volts +
" Heater ground
" Oxygen sensor signal +
" Oxygen sensor signal ground

If you have 2 or 3 wires, then you can have a common ground, or no heater wires etc. The simplest
setup is a single wire, which is the signal wire and the sensor get's it's ground from the exhaust pipe.

You can use the following procedure to narrow down which wire is which:

1. Stick straight pins into the sensor's wires and measure them to ground with the engine running. One of these will show 12 volts, and this will be power for the heater.
2. Next find any wires that produce 0 volts. These will be ground wires.
3. The remaining wire should be your signal wire.Measure the signal wire to ground with the engine running. The voltage on this wire will vary from nearly 0 to about 1 volt. Since your meter will not be fast enough to see the lows and highs, it will average them out to about .2 to about .8 volts. The fluctuations will be so fast you have a hard time reading the numbers. Note, that you have to let the engine warm up a bit before you will get these voltages from the sensor.

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If you check the schematic for the BDM EFI bike you will find that the 4 wires above are what is used.

 

[john sachs]

I have to respectfully disagree with John here. The 585 is a noticeable improvement all across the rpm range. The 585 has an earlier closing intake valve than either of the two epa cams that BDM used in the '05-later bikes. This means more cylinder pressure, which is what produces torque. The 585 has more lift and way more overlap, which really makes the bike pull in the higher rpm's. The early closing intake is going to put your cold cranking pressure above 175 psi with the stock 9.6:1 compression ratio. Bumping the compression is going to take a toll on the starter and possibly cause detonation problems under heavy load. Sure, the 600 needs the compression raised to work at its best due to the late closing intake valve, but the 585 is right in its wheelhouse with the stock 9.6:1 cr.

You're missing the word EFFICIENT. Corrected compression with nothing more than installing the 585 cam, is in the area of 184.6 CCC psi. If you're going to spend money on mods, than it makes sense to fix the whole problem(EPA combination.) If not then it's like walking through the forest, and turning around when you're half way through. Do it once = Do it right.
John

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

If you read earlier post, between Mike and I, I said I misunderstood what was explained to me about 3 and 4 wire sensor. But I was told by Erik my factory o2 sensors were not wide band. Thats why I bought new ones from S&S, and holding them up to old o2 sensors they aren't the same.

Doing a lot more research there now exist one wire wideband o2 sensors rather than the 2 wire version but I can't find a lot of info on them.

But back to the original question.
If I put a 585 cam what else should be done (specifics) and this is aimed at John Sachs.

 

[john sachs]

Mike, If you're not going to go all the way on the engine, by fixing the EPA geometry, my suggestion is to put the 585 cam in, thoroughly check your lifters (don't mix them up if you don't replace them), replace the head gaskets with .030" head gaskets, and get the bike mapped by a known TOP NOTCH tuner.
John

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Mike, If you're not going to go all the way on the engine, by fixing the EPA geometry, my suggestion is to put the 585 cam in, thoroughly check your lifters (don't mix them up if you don't replace them), replace the head gaskets with .030" head gaskets, and get the bike mapped by a known TOP NOTCH tuner.
John

OK, there in lies my real question I guess. What is involved in going all the way and fixing the geometry and the typical price range. I presume you're meaning having head work done?

 

[john sachs]

OK, there in lies my real question I guess. What is involved in going all the way and fixing the geometry and the typical price range. I presume you're meaning having head work done?

The engine work/optimizing is bringing the engine geometry up to the same specs as the current S&S (Non- EPA) engines that are being sold with today. I also include cylinder head work above, and beyond that which S&S sells their 4.125" heads with, which also includes a compression ratio adjustment to optimize the combination. I generally use the S&S .600" cam, but if the customer wants me to use a different cam, I can usually accommodate that, and adjust the mods for that.
Dyno work, tune up, map, or jetting a carb, is on the customer.
Price wise you would need to send me a phone #, as I don't post prices on the forum.
John

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

I forgot that the 20% window would be with the bike in completely stock form. A good set of pipes is going eat up some of that. Pipes AND a cam change might be more than 20%. Would there be any harm done if you tried it with the locked VFI before you spent the money on an unlocked one?

Mine kept going into limp mode and check engine light would come on. I'd have codes that read Front/rear Max limit reached or something like that.

 

[Jwooky]

Mine kept going into limp mode and check engine light would come on. I'd have codes that read Front/rear Max limit reached or something like that.

Front and or rear Bad sites once you exceed the 20%

Im not aware of a limp mode on these.