2008 EFI K9 cranks no start

[desertdawg]

Hoped I could avoid writing this but now I'm stumped. 2008 EFI K9 cranks no start. Havn't had a problem since purchase but just this Thursday can't get her started. I have the 2008 serv manual and try to follow trouble shooting flow chart but it's all aimed at the carb schematic. Press left T/Sig then turn on key-self test proves as all lights at ehc illuminate and extinguish after @ 3 seconds. None stay on except power and flashing controller. press run and ignition fault light at EHC comes on then goes out. Fuel pump activates i am assuming rail is pressurized as I smell fuel. I hit starter and EHC ign light is on during starter spin, C/Rs cycle front and rear then release but still wont fire. Pulled plugs to check for sprk have it although it looks weak. Sub in new CPS but doesn't change. Continuity check harness at CPS and IGN coil ohms good. I dont understand the manuals coil prove out as it asks for continuity checks at primary (low tension wire) and secondary (high tension wire) but they are labled +, front cyl and rear cyl. Battery checks at 12.9v but I get starter lock after 10-12 attempts all <5sec. I am a collision repair tech so I have some knowledge and am not intimidated by this however like I say the manual seems to be aimed soley at carb bikes. The bike shops here in Tucson are really scary as I ended up rebuiding & jetting my wifes 2006 Mastiff carb after spending $200 on a set of wrong heat range plugs and a idle mixture adjust that took three days. Hope someone might have some ideas or point me in the right direction even if it is the repair shop. Thanks for listening....Ron

 

[KaptinAmerika]

Low tension is the power into the coil
High Tension is the end the spark plug is plugged into
Here is a video to help you understand it better. Of course use the values from your manual when testing.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRQ45lT2d3c"]Video[/ame]

 

[desertdawg]

Thanks for the quick resopnse. I too saw that coil test on you tube. The question I have is my coil is connected to the bike electrically by a single cannon plug that sports three pins. center orange= + then the left and right cylinders. I was hoping someone knew how to test it for for serviceability as the service manual is vague when it comes to actually probing it. ie is the center pin that states + in the manual considered the primary low tension circuit and if so when I ohms it to ground it shows open. By the by as it's dark here I went out and plugged in a spare plug to a plug wire and got a faint orange spark. A good sign that at least the ignition circuit is alive, just weak. I smell fuel at the exhaust. Will a low battery affect spark intensity? after my test I checked the batt a got 12.8v on my DMM. As I write this I should probably check coil delivery voltage to be at batt voltage. It was on one of the a-f flow charts but as I said the whole thing is not well written. Anyway again I do appreciate the help. Got a text from my bikes dad Erldawg and as usual he's calling in the calvary. I know if I take it down to the one and only ex bigdog dealer here they gonna tell me it's the EHC after 4 weeks of trying to figure it out. I just don't think thats it.thanks...Ron

 

[KaptinAmerika]

It's not the EHC
The center wire marked positive is the 12v supply.
The two outer wires are the low tension leads
Test each side
You should be getting 12v on the center lead when everything is on and ready to run

 

[erldawg]

Kapt has you running in the right direction.

There have been some guys troubleshooting run problems and eventually changed coil and fixed the problem. Not that I propose throwing parts at the bike however I do not believe the EHC or EFI/ECM is bad.

 

[DRBarnhart]

The question I have is my coil is connected to the bike electrically by a single cannon plug that sports three pins. center orange= + then the left and right cylinders. I was hoping someone knew how to test it for for serviceability as the service manual is vague when it comes to actually probing it.

Section F (NO START, ENGINE CRANKS) is pretty specific on how to test your coil.

ie is the center pin that states + in the manual considered the primary low tension circuit and if so when I ohms it to ground it shows open.

You don't measure it to ground! Disconnect all the wires on the coil then one meter lead goes on the (+) and the other lead goes to the terminal where the yellow wire was and then to the terminal where the blue wire was. Both measurements should be 2 - 4 ohms. That's the low tension test.

For the high tension test all you do is put one meter probe in each spark plug wire hole. The reading you get should be 12K-21K ohms.

If those tests are good and you have a good 12VDC to the coil you may just have bad spark plug wires based on

I went out and plugged in a spare plug to a plug wire and got a faint orange spark. A good sign that at least the ignition circuit is alive, just weak.

You should have a nice fat blue spark...

Dennis

 

[desertdawg]

Thanks for that input Dennis. I found that section f this morning. I decided to reverse flow chart as it felt like I was going in circles. Coil shows no resistance to either side so I've condemned it. I get no batt voltage at coil power terminal. Does that have anything to do with the sign module being located in the efi controller? Thanks again for the Input you all have provided. Feels good to have more eyes involved. Just a suggestion, sure would be nice if we had an efi specific diagnostic flow chart. Once this is over maybe I can help work on one.... Ron

 

[DRBarnhart]

Coil shows no resistance to either side so I've condemned it.

As long as you're checking for continuity on the coil itself and not to ground, I'd have to agree with you. The only thing that makes me wonder is that you said there's spark? If that's the case then the coil can't have 0 ohms of resistance.

I get no batt voltage at coil power terminal. Does that have anything to do with the sign module being located in the efi controller?

The power for your coil comes through a relay and has 25A circuit breaker in it. The relay is energized by the EFI controller so you may want to check if the circuit breaker is popped, if the relay is getting energized, and if power is flowing through it when it does. Again, you're saying that there's no voltage at the coil but yet you have spark even though it's weak one? You may want to get specific on where and how you're checking this stuff cause something doesn't make sense here...

Dennis

 

[erldawg]

As long as you're checking for continuity on the coil itself and not to ground, I'd have to agree with you. The only thing that makes me wonder is that you said there's spark? If that's the case then the coil can't have 0 ohms of resistance.The power for your coil comes through a relay and has 25A circuit breaker in it. The relay is energized by the EFI controller so you may want to check if the circuit breaker is popped, if the relay is getting energized, and if power is flowing through it when it does. Again, you're saying that there's no voltage at the coil but yet you have spark even though it's weak one? You may want to get specific on where and how you're checking this stuff cause something doesn't make sense here...

Dennis

Again sounds like your on the right track.

Your in excellent hands Ron.

 

[desertdawg]

Ok, here are the measure ments and observations to date.
Old ignition coil remeasured shows .7ohms from center to both cyl
Old ignition coil remeasured shows 70.0 kohms fom wire to wire
I purchased a new coil today and measured prior to install
New ignition coil measured .7 ohms from center to both cyl
New ignition coil measured 11.72 kohms from wire to wire
While I had the coil off I measured vdc at center red lead from bike to coil. That lead did not show hot at key on, or run on, but did go to hot to 9+ volts dc during starter spin. However, once starter was disengaged voltage climbed to the 12s then dropped back to zero.
I installed new ignition coil and attemped to start, cranks no start. installed dummy plug for spark verification and witnessed a tiny orange spark between the center and outer contacts.
Subed in old EFI controller bike came with new (thanks Earl) and got the same crank no start, same tiny orange spark.
That's where Im up to to date.
I apoligize Dennis for sending you off track. I misspoke when I inferenced I was measuring to ground at the coil.
Can you guys give me your EHC ignition fault light charachteristics when you engage run. Sometimes the light just blinks at run initiation then is out . Sometimes it will stay illuminated through the fuel pump cycle and then go out. If I cycle the run /off a few times with out initiating the starter I can get the EHC to illuminate the ignition fault light and it remains on until I turn the run switch off. But, no matter what, any time the starter is engaged, that ignition faul light comes on for the duration of that starter cycle. I would only be interested in comparing your patterns provided you were checking an EFI bike. The way the test data changes between EFI and carb I am skeptical that they behave the same way during the start cycle as the ignition modules are different. I dont spose Earl, that you and your buddies used to sit around drinking lager comparing EHCs with each others right side covers off did you:lol: Had to throw in a little levity as the fun just keeps on coming.
Seriously though, thanks to all for the interest and help. Earl I called that number you suggested and left a message. Thanks again.......Ron

 

[DRBarnhart]

While I had the coil off I measured vdc at center red lead from bike to coil. That lead did not show hot at key on, or run on, but did go to hot to 9+ volts dc during starter spin. However, once starter was disengaged voltage climbed to the 12s then dropped back to zero.

If you put the meter on the battery and try to start it does it do the same thing (drop to 9 VDC during cranking)? If so, you may want to load test it...

Dennis

 

[erldawg]

That lead did not show hot at key on, or run on, but did go to hot to 9+ volts dc during starter spin. However, once starter was disengaged voltage climbed to the 12s then dropped back to zero.
I installed new ignition coil and attemped to start, cranks no start. installed dummy plug for spark verification and witnessed a tiny orange spark between the center and outer contacts.
Subed in old EFI controller bike came with new (thanks Earl) and got the same crank no start, same tiny orange spark.
That's where Im up to to date.
I apoligize Dennis for sending you off track. I misspoke when I inferenced I was measuring to ground at the coil.
Can you guys give me your EHC ignition fault light charachteristics when you engage run. Sometimes the light just blinks at run initiation then is out . Sometimes it will stay illuminated through the fuel pump cycle and then go out. If I cycle the run /off a few times with out initiating the starter I can get the EHC to illuminate the ignition fault light and it remains on until I turn the run switch off. But, no matter what, any time the starter is engaged, that ignition faul light comes on for the duration of that starter cycle. I would only be interested in comparing your patterns provided you were checking an EFI bike. The way the test data changes between EFI and carb I am skeptical that they behave the same way during the start cycle as the ignition modules are different. I dont spose Earl, that you and your buddies used to sit around drinking lager comparing EHCs with each others right side covers off did you:lol: Had to throw in a little levity as the fun just keeps on coming.
Seriously though, thanks to all for the interest and help. Earl I called that number you suggested and left a message. Thanks again.......Ron

The service manual should have info on the operation of the lights on the EHC controller. Everyone jumps to the conclusion the EHC is bad when the bike will not run and in all actuality a bad wire somewhere will F it up. Have you checked the relays and fuse? Located behind left side cover. Also verify crimps on wires at the battery. Also like Dennis mentioned if battery drops to 9V during cranking - time for a new one. Low voltage will make the EHC do weird things too.

Looking at the wiring diagram you should have 12v at the coil with all on just before hitting start (engage starter) (make sure all wires are connected up during this check) aka coil.

Download the Pro Tune software and connect to the S&S ECM there you can see if all the sensors are operational or follow the troubleshooting diagrams in the BDM manual to check all the sensors.

 

[BigDogBro1]

I think this is how the ECM runs but I haven't looked at an EFI schematic in a while. If I'm wrong I will correct this information later. Like Paul said as well.

Voltage at the battery terminals should be around 10.1 to 10.5 volts during enging cranking if I recall correctly.

You will NOT get power at the ignition coil when key is just turned ON. The EHC/ECM is powered up and only readys itself for switch buttons.

When you push the RUN button the EHC module powers the ECM. It energizes the relay and sends 12v power thru the relay for coil power and will turn on the fuel pump for about 2 seconds to pressurize the fuel rail. I think the EHC ignition LED might come on or flash as well.

This is just a two second timer and there is NO fuel rail pressure sensor that tells the fuel pump to stop running. When the bike engine is RUNNING the fuel pump is always running as well.

After 2 seconds it shuts down again. When you press the START button the relay will kick in again and stay on to feed power while running.

If the internal relay contacts for some reason may be bad it can cause problems during running due to LOW current and/or voltage. We have swaped out our ignition/pump power relay with the horn relay just to help eliminate any relay problems for testing.

 

[desertdawg]

I used my wife's Mastiff last nite for load test and got 10.9 during stater cycle. I'll replace battery today as the best it offered under load was 9.5v. I've already subbed in the horn relay as they are the same. I don't get coil voltage at engine run on but I do get fuel pump prime for two seconds. I only get coil feed voltage during starter engage. The mastiff does get coil voltage at engine run. Is this because the mastiff is Carb and the k9 is efi ? I find no reference to this difference in the service manual. I continue to monitor ehc during testing but would love for an efi owner to give me their ignition fault light observations during key on, run on, start, and engine run. I feel like a moron that I didn't take the time to observe this before. I did find that coil spec ohms reading differ between Carb and efi bikes. I'll try new battery

first before going up under the tank for wiring issue. I can tell all that read this post that I've already found two wires that due to engine vibration and their poor routing have experienced wear to the insulation . One ground got to copper. I recommend serious harness probes as regular maintenance, just a thought.
thanks againto all of you hanging in there with me, I do appreciate you help.
Ron

 

[erldawg]

I used my wife's Mastiff last nite for load test and got 10.9 during stater cycle. I'll replace battery today as the best it offered under load was 9.5v. I've already subbed in the horn relay as they are the same. I don't get coil voltage at engine run on but I do get fuel pump prime for two seconds. I only get coil feed voltage during starter engage. The mastiff does get coil voltage at engine run. Is this because the mastiff is Carb and the k9 is efi ? I find no reference to this difference in the service manual. I continue to monitor ehc during testing but would love for an efi owner to give me their ignition fault light observations during key on, run on, start, and engine run. I feel like a moron that I didn't take the time to observe this before. I did find that coil spec ohms reading differ between Carb and efi bikes. I'll try new battery

first before going up under the tank for wiring issue. I can tell all that read this post that I've already found two wires that due to engine vibration and their poor routing have experienced wear to the insulation . One ground got to copper. I recommend serious harness probes as regular maintenance, just a thought.
thanks againto all of you hanging in there with me, I do appreciate you help.
Ron

Compare wiring diagrams between the carb n efi. If you look at the wiring diagram you can clearly see red wire from coil to relay. Coil should Have continuity to the relay and power when the relay is energized. You could disconnect Batt jump across relay and verify continuity from coil to batt. Wish I had a magic bullet. Did you remove connector at EHC and verify clean and add dielectric grease? I WOULD ALSO verify sensors with troubleshooting guide.

 

[desertdawg]

Thanks to all for the input I'm up and running again. No smoking gun but it appears a coil and weak battery loaded the cylinders. A new coil and battery were installed. Cracked open throttle just a hair fired and ran dirty. Nursed throttle until she'd idle, check engine light came on. Ran until clean idle, turned off and let her cool a bit. Restarted, no check engine light.
Manual is in error on coil resistance at primary low tension. Should be@ .5ohms. Also coil doesn't energize until starter relay is energized. Thanks again to you all for your interest and assistance!
Ron.

 

[bearman]

Glad you got back on the road. And thanks for letting us know what it was.