Bike Quit - 2007 Bulldog EFI

[Fourbar]

Hello,

Today I got about 2 miles from home and the bike just quit. Speedo acted fine... nothing strange. I came to a stop, turned the key off then on and hit run, but nothing would happen (no fuel pump energizing sound)... would not start or even turn over. Wiggled wires and tried again. Still the same. Disconnected the negative terminal to the battery and waited 5 minutes. Reconnected battery and still nothing. Was thinking things over and tried again. It energized and started. Rode towards home and it quit again entering my driveway. Turned key off then on and hit run and it started again. Quit again heading into garage. Started again and while running in garage I couldn't get it to act up again. I shut it off and hooked up the Laptop and ran the S&S Protune II. Ran great, didn't act up. The malfunction indicator never came on. No current DTC's. Ran great.

History: I installed a new programmable S&S VFI a few weeks ago and other than merging the adaptive maps once, the bike has run great.

I have ridden 10-12 days since the VFI swap with no trouble until the last time out. I went to start the bike in the garage to go for a 90 mile ride and the first 4 times after turning the key on... nothing would happen when I hit run. Speedo acted normal. Finally it energized the fuel pump and VFI module and it started. Stopped and started again and all seemed fine so I went for the ride and the bike ran great. Started and stopped several times along the ride and it always started right up.

Makes me not feel very comfortable planning any rides with anyone... just don't have the confidence now.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I have tried pulling on wires and connectors under the seat and also the keyed ignition.

50 degree temps and sunny.


Stumped?!??

 

[pknowles]

There's a loose connection somewhere. Do a search on EFI. There's several good discussions on it.

 

[Ohmster]

Could be a loose connection as Pk suggested. Could be a connection that is weak and causing a higher resistance though that circuit that could be overheating a FET in the EHC causing it to shut down the ignition circuit long enough till the FET cools down enough. It could be a FET in the EHC itself failing causing it to overheat as well.

The symptoms your describing, especially the variance in time between the bike not firing and then firing back up would tend me to lean towards a wire causing high resistance back to the EHC overheating that ignition FET or a problem internal in the EHC.

It's not in the EFI system otherwise you would be logging DTC's and your fuel pump would still engage. It's a power input issue to the VFI module. There are 3 total 12vdc power inputs to the VFI module. Two inputs power the system and are supplied by the EHC. The third input is supplied from the battery system through the circuit breaker but that input is just a constant power input for the memory of the VFI module for the learned adaptive maps of the VFI since it has volatile memory and will reset the adaptive maps if the constant power input is disconnected.

I might be wrong but Ive seen this many times before and suspect in the end its going to be an EHC issue.

 

[Fourbar]

Update: Started bike last night and wiggled every wire I could including under seat, under coil cover, ignition key, headlight, rear lights and turn signals. Bike ran great and started every time. Need to wiggle fuel tank also next time I start it. Weather was not good so I will not be able to take it for a ride until this weekend. Only way to tell on the "heat" issue is to take it out... I will have the trailer ready incase!

 

[BigDogBro1]

wasn't this posted a while back?

Make sure all the crimped wires going to the battery terminals are all crimped TIGHT.

Some of those wires feed power/ground to the EFI module. I had this problem with mine for one season. It would run then just die out. Also check the relays under the LH side cover. One powers the fuel pump, coil and the 2nd controls the horn power. These two relays can be swapped to see if the coil relay may be bad.

Could also be a crankshaft position sensor getting weak when it gets hot. Pull it and check for crud on the pickup face.

Search on dielectric grease and go out and buy some.

 

[tommy666]

I had that issue once and it was actually a bad VFI.

 

[Fourbar]

Update: Rode Saturday... quit once (7 miles into ride) and fired back up immediately. Ran without issues the rest of the day. Could it be a circuit breaker?

 

[Fourbar]

Update: Went to start bike last night and same symtom... turned the key on... speedo cycled as normal... pressed "Run" and nothing happened. Pissed with it for ten minutes trying many things and no luck. Went away for an hour and came home and it work???!! Frustrating as to why and when this wants to plague me. Can't figure any rhyme or reason to its insanity.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Mine gived me a little trouble like that when its really cold -- temperature (ambient warms up) and the bike is fine.

I pulled the EHC out and cleaned the connectors and its been better, going to do it again so I can clean the female connector as well this time and get some more grease in there to seal it better.

I had one EHC I actually had to pour hot water over once to get it to start!

This bikes only got a little over 4k on it and I'm planning a preemptive EHC replacement.

 

[BigDogBro1]

Did you do the items I suggested?
Make sure all the crimped wires going to the battery terminals are all crimped TIGHT.
PULL ON THEM TO CHECK.
Some of those wires feed power/ground to the EFI module. I had this problem with mine for one season. It would run then just die out. Also check the relays under the LH side cover. One powers the fuel pump, coil and the 2nd controls the horn power. These two relays can be swapped to see if the coil relay may be bad.

When the bike dies is it like turning off the key?

Are you running a security system with ignition kill?

What do the ECH LEDs look like when you turn on the key again after it dies?

 

[Fourbar]

I can't believe temperature can effect the EHC... Must be a very poor design. Just like BDBro1 said, I will re-crimp every wire I can. I have pulled on all wires at the terminations while the bike is running and nothing happened.
I also plan on cleaning and adding grease to the EHC connections as a precaution and go from there. Last night convinced me that the circuit breaker is not at fault as there was no heat introduced to the variables. Humidity and ambient temps between no go and go were basically unchanged.

 

[BigDogBro1]

There are two power sources to the EFI module...one constant and one switched via the EHC --- key ON.
What could be happening is the (constant) 12v power wire or grounds to the EFI from the battery are intermittent causing the bike to die.

What's the battery voltage sitting in the garage turned OFF.

Jiggle the key in the keyswitch and don't hang anything heavy from the key!!!

BTW there is no circuit breaker that I can think of that could cause the engine to die other that the charging CB and the battery runs dead.

Do you have a EFI wiring diagram? Maybe someone will post one or do a search.

Read this entire thread by me to understand.
http://www.bigdogbiker.com/forums/help-wanted/14952-07-bulldog-wont-turn.html

 

[Fourbar]

BDBro1: Didn't see your last reply until now. I have tried pulling on all wires while the bike is running with no effect. All wires seem tight, but I will re-crimp as soon as I can.

I will also check the relays at this time. I am unfamiliar with the relays but will study the schematic. What should I look for? Are they the same relay as you suggest swapping?

I plan on following the rest of your advice with the grease and cleaning on the EHC.

Yes, when the bike dies it is just like turning the key off. I have not had a chance to see the EHC lights when it has died because I did not think to look at them until it refired. The next time I will look.

The previous owner had a lojack anti-theft system on it but had it uninstalled before I purchased.

From one Michigander to another, thanks for your support!

 

[Jwooky]

PM me your email and I'll send you a schematic.

I think your approach needs to be a little more systematic. Focus more on the circuits that are relevant and trace them from end to end.
You cannot just randomly pull on all the wires while running to see what happens.

The horn relay and the power relay to the EFI components are the same.

 

[Fourbar]

Hey guys,

While I have the ECU connectors apart to clean and grease... Should I pull the VFI connector and grease it also? Does anyone know what S&S recommends? There is no mention of dielectric grease in my S&S VFI module paperwork for installation. Also, should I use an electrical contact cleaner on any of the computer connectors?

I can only find the relay from the battery. I cannot find the relay for the ignition to EHC interface. Where am I missing it?

 

[Jwooky]

The VFI has a sealed connector, so no grease needed.

Post a few pics of what you have and we can guide you to it.

The relay that was referenced above doesn't power the EHC, it powers and the EFI sensors, coil and fuel pump.

Dont confuse it with the Circuit breaker.

 

[BigDogBro1]

Make sure the voltage regulator is tightened properly to the frame mount and has external tooth lock washers against frame mounts.

Keep us posted!

 

[Fourbar]

Well, after going through everything that was suggested, I put it back together last night and it worked/started. Didn't have time to take it for a ride... maybe tonight. Obviously, just because it worked does not convince me something I did corrected an issue. Only time will tell as it was intermittent.

When I was mounting the ECH after cleaning pins and sockets and adding dielectric grease, the rear stud broke off. The locking nut was not even all the way on the locking portion. The stud is hollow. Piss poor design and workmenship by BD. I know not to over tighten this but it twisted off way to easy. Now I will have to rig something up to keep it from vibrating/pivoting but think I have a plan. Both mounting studs on the ECH "spin" in the housing. Is this normal? Wouldn't tighen up spinning anyways.

I had John Beezer replace the VR last summer, but will check it for ground and tightness again.

Looking down the road... what is available to replace the EHC on an EFI bike? Wire Plus? P/N WP-374 with WP-148 ignition switch?

BDBro1: I have seen you mention in other posts that there are several ECH replacement units just coming on the market... EFI?

Anyother options or preferred options?

Also, out of curiosity, what is and how do you do a EFI reset procedure?

 

[Ohmster]

You could use a WP and replace the ignition switch or you can install an EHC RIP kit thats plug and play with no crimping required. If you choose that option then you can order one through Curtis or you can order one from us.

The way to reset your EFI is to disconnect the negative battery terminal. Wait about 15 seconds and hook it back up. Then turn the key on and hit the run button. Your fuel pump will cycle for 2 seconds and your IAC will run all the way to the fully open position and back to the closed position. Hit the off button and turn off the key. Wait 15 seconds and then you can turn the key on and go ahead and start the bike.

 

[BigDogBro1]

Well, after going through everything that was suggested, I put it back together last night and it worked/started. Didn't have time to take it for a ride... maybe tonight. Obviously, just because it worked does not convince me something I did corrected an issue. Only time will tell as it was intermittent.

When I was mounting the ECH after cleaning pins and sockets and adding dielectric grease, the rear stud broke off. The locking nut was not even all the way on the locking portion. The stud is hollow. Piss poor design and workmenship by BD. I know not to over tighten this but it twisted off way to easy. Now I will have to rig something up to keep it from vibrating/pivoting but think I have a plan. Both mounting studs on the ECH "spin" in the housing. Is this normal? Wouldn't tighen up spinning anyways.

I had John Beezer replace the VR last summer, but will check it for ground and tightness again.

Looking down the road... what is available to replace the EHC on an EFI bike? Wire Plus? P/N WP-374 with WP-148 ignition switch?

BDBro1: I have seen you mention in other posts that there are several ECH replacement units just coming on the market... EFI?

Anyother options or preferred options?

Also, out of curiosity, what is and how do you do a EFI reset procedure?

The VR must have EXTERNAL TOOTH STAR WASHERS between the VR and the frame mounting bosses to have a good ground contact.

Wild Steed Works here on the forum as a sponsor sells the RIP EHC replacement unit and harness just released which has my attention. You need to closely check if it's EFI READY...meaning ALL LED functions and ECM control for your bike.
http://www.wildsteedworx.com/index...._info&cPath=65_68_173_82_203&products_id=1247

Also, out of curiosity, what is and how do you do a EFI reset procedure?
There is a label under the seat near the rear fender on the battery bracket that explains it.

After disconnecting and reconnecting your battery on EFI's only. You must turn your key on, push run, you will hear the fuel pump cycle, then wait for your engine light to go off. Turn your key off, wait 15 seconds. She will be ready.

Didn't see Ohmsters earlier detailed reply which is accurate.


__________________