Clutch Problem from hell

[Jersey Big Mike]

So I go out the other day and the bike is good.
Go out the following day and I pull the clutch in and the cable/handle clunks and suddenly I've got WAY to much slack
Jack the bike up the next morning and adjust clutch (both ends to be safe) Did fluid change a week ago.
So I take it for a test ride and now its noisy when I pull the clutch in.

Re-adjust to make sure -- still noisy.

Pull clutch apart as well as actuator.
Discover that the throw-out bearing is SHOT TO HELL.

Called Bandit and got the size of the bearing and ordered one in case I couldn't find it locally (I did)
Also learned that the Bandit clutch prefers the ramp set up from a 12 plate clutch not the easy pull used in a 9 plate clutch (or bigger bearings int he 9 pull)
Ok, can't find the bearings but when I replaced my transmiossion I got the actuator with it -- what looked to be a 12 plate version (2006 before BDM went to easy pull)

Call AAA to fix the flat on the damn truck so I can run 22 miles and go get the bearing.
Stop at local bike shop and have it pressed out and new one pressed in.

Get home, reassemble everything the next day (was too late and too hot to work on the bike much after I got home)
So Friday morning I get it back together and adjusted the clutch and install the ramp from the 12 plate clutch set up.

Go for a little test ride, clutch needs minor adjustment.
I go out friday note no problems.

Saturday morning we have run scheduled so I tweak the clutch adjustment about 1/2turn on the cable.
I leave the house, stop 1 mile up road -- station is virtually out of gas.
Go to next station, fill up
Go across the street to our meeting location (now I am a whopping 4 miles from my house)
I pull in, as I go to back into the parking space I pull the clutch in and CLUNK - extra slack again.

But wait, it's different this time, I'm in first gear and even if I let the clutch cable all the way out, the bike doesn't move.
Ok that tells me the cable isn't broken since when that happens and your in gear the bike moves.

Change gears -- doesn't move in any gear even if I tack up to 3.5K

WTF -- never seen this before.

Call AAA to tow the bike home. My crew rides off.

Get the bike home, it;s late, have lunch and decide to wait till Sunday to work on it.

Got up earlier than normal for me and started in it this morning.
Pull exhaust off so I can get at the actuator
check everything -- looks good, greased well. Adjust and it works -- fine tune the adjustment and re-install exhuast
Give it a try -- its ok, Shift a gear of two -- CLUNK
Again cable slack in gear and no rear wheel motion.
Pull exhaust, actuator, pull primary cover as well and try adjusting. CLUNK
WTF

Finally pulled actuator and put back in the easy pull ramp and all is well so far.

I be ordering new larger ball bearings this week so I can FINALLY find neutral on this thing easily.

Had the damn bandit on BOTH my K-9 -- 9 Years -- no one told to use bigger bearings or the other ramp(apparently the ramp I had which was used must have been bad!)

What a week.

At least it was while I was here and not half way to tennessee gathering as much as I wanted to be there.

 

[knothead]

So I go out the other day and the bike is good.
Go out the following day and I pull the clutch in and the cable/handle clunks and suddenly I've got WAY to much slack
Jack the bike up the next morning and adjust clutch (both ends to be safe) Did fluid change a week ago.
So I take it for a test ride and now its noisy when I pull the clutch in.

Re-adjust to make sure -- still noisy.

Pull clutch apart as well as actuator.
Discover that the throw-out bearing is SHOT TO HELL.

Called Bandit and got the size of the bearing and ordered one in case I couldn't find it locally (I did)
Also learned that the Bandit clutch prefers the ramp set up from a 12 plate clutch not the easy pull used in a 9 plate clutch (or bigger bearings int he 9 pull)
Ok, can't find the bearings but when I replaced my transmiossion I got the actuator with it -- what looked to be a 12 plate version (2006 before BDM went to easy pull)

Call AAA to fix the flat on the damn truck so I can run 22 miles and go get the bearing.
Stop at local bike shop and have it pressed out and new one pressed in.

Get home, reassemble everything the next day (was too late and too hot to work on the bike much after I got home)
So Friday morning I get it back together and adjusted the clutch and install the ramp from the 12 plate clutch set up.

Go for a little test ride, clutch needs minor adjustment.
I go out friday note no problems.

Saturday morning we have run scheduled so I tweak the clutch adjustment about 1/2turn on the cable.
I leave the house, stop 1 mile up road -- station is virtually out of gas.
Go to next station, fill up
Go across the street to our meeting location (now I am a whopping 4 miles from my house)
I pull in, as I go to back into the parking space I pull the clutch in and CLUNK - extra slack again.

But wait, it's different this time, I'm in first gear and even if I let the clutch cable all the way out, the bike doesn't move.
Ok that tells me the cable isn't broken since when that happens and your in gear the bike moves.

Change gears -- doesn't move in any gear even if I tack up to 3.5K

WTF -- never seen this before.

Call AAA to tow the bike home. My crew rides off.

Get the bike home, it;s late, have lunch and decide to wait till Sunday to work on it.

Got up earlier than normal for me and started in it this morning.
Pull exhaust off so I can get at the actuator
check everything -- looks good, greased well. Adjust and it works -- fine tune the adjustment and re-install exhuast
Give it a try -- its ok, Shift a gear of two -- CLUNK
Again cable slack in gear and no rear wheel motion.
Pull exhaust, actuator, pull primary cover as well and try adjusting. CLUNK
WTF

Finally pulled actuator and put back in the easy pull ramp and all is well so far.

I be ordering new larger ball bearings this week so I can FINALLY find neutral on this thing easily.

Had the damn bandit on BOTH my K-9 -- 9 Years -- no one told to use bigger bearings or the other ramp(apparently the ramp I had which was used must have been bad!)

What a week.

At least it was while I was here and not half way to tennessee gathering as much as I wanted to be there.

Damn Mike.....i hope you get it all lined out....missed ya being here

 

[Pddain]

Damn and I thought I had problems. Glad it all worked out.

 

[SKOGDOG]

I recently had the same symptoms with my OEM clutch and when reading your post I thought of the throwout bearing. I had misadjusted the clutch and it didn’t have enough clearance, so it trashed the throwout bearing—luckily between Blacktopper and me, we have a couple of spares. The clutch showed many of the symptoms you describe, especially the careful adjustment, only to have the crunch and suddenly waaay too much slack in just 4 or 5 blocks. I finally wound up replacing the clutch pack too. Actuator and ball ramp OK. So far so good after 100 miles or so. Be sure to let us know if things have worked out OK for you.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I recently had the same symptoms with my OEM clutch and when reading your post I thought of the throwout bearing. I had misadjusted the clutch and it didn’t have enough clearance, so it trashed the throwout bearing—luckily between Blacktopper and me, we have a couple of spares. The clutch showed many of the symptoms you describe, especially the careful adjustment, only to have the crunch and suddenly waaay too much slack in just 4 or 5 blocks. I finally wound up replacing the clutch pack too. Actuator and ball ramp OK. So far so good after 100 miles or so. Be sure to let us know if things have worked out OK for you.

Well the throw out bearing going on my original K-9' BDM clutch was why I knew what was wrong this time!

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Well, if it's not one thing it's another.

Clutch is good, neutral is still mildly annoying to find but I'm used to that.

So I go out for a test run the other day.
I leave and the RED light is on -- ok battery was disconnected, needs to re-learn -- normally this is a 5 mile process.
I'm headed down the road and the damn light isn't going out.
Finally it goes out and then back on, kept doing that for a bit.
Now I'm about 30 miles from the house and it starts running rough -- at 3500 to 4000 rpm its ok, below that it's acting like only one cylinder is working.

So I nurse it when I'm in town and crack the throttle on the highway and make it home.

Before I pull into my trailer I reach down and feel the exhaust -- sure enough feels like the rear cylinder is firing every 2nd or 3rd time.

Do key routine to reset VFI, pull power to reset EHC

Start it up -- no good.

So I hook it up to Protune after finding my cable.

Start the bike and I see the problem instantly.

Front o2 sensor .80v, rear 5V

Looks like there's a short in the o2 sensor -- pulled the rear sensor cable off.

Ran for couple of minutes -- now says stuck sensor but runs nice.

Pipes were too hot to pull the O2 sensor and fix the shorted wire (hopefully somewhere I can access it and not in the body of the sensor)

Somedays you just can't win.

 

[Mastiff Rider64]

Well, if it's not one thing it's another.

Clutch is good, neutral is still mildly annoying to find but I'm used to that.

So I go out for a test run the other day.
I leave and the RED light is on -- ok battery was disconnected, needs to re-learn -- normally this is a 5 mile process.
I'm headed down the road and the damn light isn't going out.
Finally it goes out and then back on, kept doing that for a bit.
Now I'm about 30 miles from the house and it starts running rough -- at 3500 to 4000 rpm its ok, below that it's acting like only one cylinder is working.

So I nurse it when I'm in town and crack the throttle on the highway and make it home.

Before I pull into my trailer I reach down and feel the exhaust -- sure enough feels like the rear cylinder is firing every 2nd or 3rd time.

Do key routine to reset VFI, pull power to reset EHC

Start it up -- no good.

So I hook it up to Protune after finding my cable.

Start the bike and I see the problem instantly.

Front o2 sensor .80v, rear 5V

Looks like there's a short in the o2 sensor -- pulled the rear sensor cable off.

Ran for couple of minutes -- now says stuck sensor but runs nice.

Pipes were too hot to pull the O2 sensor and fix the shorted wire (hopefully somewhere I can access it and not in the body of the sensor)

Somedays you just can't win.

Damn Mike sorry to hear of all the problems you are having. But I know you'll get it running again. So how hard is it to learn the protune software? I have an unlocked VFI on the bagger and been having problems myself. Only thing i've ever done with protune is looked up trouble codes. But a mechanic friend says I'm to rich in the start up cycle in protune.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Damn Mike sorry to hear of all the problems you are having. But I know you'll get it running again. So how hard is it to learn the protune software? I have an unlocked VFI on the bagger and been having problems myself. Only thing i've ever done with protune is looked up trouble codes. But a mechanic friend says I'm to rich in the start up cycle in protune.

To me it's pretty straight forward but I'm a computer guy for my entire career so I might not be the best to ask.
I also don't do very much with it since my VFI is locked and that really limits what I can do.

 

[FrankBDPS]

At least you are smart enough to work on your bike yourself. Just think how a shop would have jacked you around and what the cost would have been. Good work Mike. Ride safely.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

At least you are smart enough to work on your bike yourself. Just think how a shop would have jacked you around and what the cost would have been. Good work Mike. Ride safely.

This year especially, if I had to put it in the shop for the work I wouldn't be riding as around here it would break the bank as it were.
If it weren't for this group, Curtis, HDM I wouldn't still own a BDM (as much as I love it) as I wouldn't have been able to keep it on the road.
The resources on here are pure gold for keeping your BDM running and most of the guys on here have hearts of gold as well.

 

[Sven]

Zero out the clutch lever so there is no free-gap. See if N is now easier to find. I'd swap 02's to see if the protune sees front with 5v... this says a sensor not a wire short.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

Zero out the clutch lever so there is no free-gap. See if N is now easier to find. I'd swap 02's to see if the protune sees front with 5v... this says a sensor not a wire short.

O2 -- problem lies between connector and O2 sensor which is why when disconneced it is OK.
Since the wires on the O2 sensor got twisted while I was working a short is a realistic suspect.

No free gap doesn't do it -- the Bandit clutch needs more "pull height" to completely disengage -- larger bearings will fix it with easy ramp.

 

[Sven]

... when disconnected it is OK.... the O2 sensor got twisted while I was working a short is a realistic suspect.

I'm going to assume you came to the conclusion that if the main was at the twist, the problem would still be there... which becomes complex if you think about FI.

Here is what you said found in post #6:

Front o2 sensor .80v, rear 5V

Looks like there's a short in the o2 sensor -- pulled the rear sensor cable off.

Ran for couple of minutes -- now says stuck sensor but runs nice.

Even though the thread jacking went from clutch to FI, who cares, you're so close to the grasp of the diagnosing. This is more the basic FI theory of what you are looking for.

Definition of analog: of, relating to, or being a mechanism or device in which information is represented by continuously variable physical quantities
That's the sensor sending in many [analog] inputs.

Definition of digital: : of, relating to, or using calculation by numerical methods or by discrete units.
That's the processor expecting a single digit [of many analog] inputs. Here is how FI self diagnoses itself;
1. Connector not connected = Codes.
2. Pin or wire out of of connector = Codes.
3. Signal [analog] out of range~short to ground~open = Codes.

Look as an example the .80v [digit] v. 5v [analog] is the sensor. Fixed is .80v no matter the heat range. 5v is your cold test and with the 02 you think the opposite. Here comes the simplicity of FI and this analog/digital signal in the diagnosing of it. 5v says the processor knows this is the cold in the garage morning start, and this says chock it, or morning choke. The 02 heats up and the voltage drops [opposite think] as it warms up and sends in the analog [5-4-3-2-1v] and without getting more complex and that [working] voltage range of an 02, you now look at the fixed [digital] single signal the other 02 is stuck at .08v = digit over and over is that same one digit input = Codes.

The paraphrase: 'runs nice but still says stuck sensor' is back to the 1-2-3 diagnose scenario as it codes with each number showing it's a single digit being the input. So when you pulled the sensor off, you forced a code [that way is 1]. Code means 'backup' for safe running. The beauty of FI is the handcuffing man is forced to comply to the workaround. Very first rule of FI is to think 14.7 psi is 'BACKUP' to FI.

The ping back and forth of the processor waiting for input at a sensor every micro second, that 02 is sending input at idle, cruise, lift, WOT is the analog. When you say it ran better, it goes thru a method of that handcuffing. So method [backup] handles idle and low speeds with the VOES and rpm. High rpm, the method uses the TPS and rpm. That's where your backup= runs better is in 'open loop' or digital input. Closed loop are the 02's analog signals. The Alpha Method kicks in when the 02 fails/TPS fails/VOES fails.

She wink-winked at me if you understood how simple the complex is.
_________________________________________________

No free gap doesn't do it -- the Bandit clutch needs more "pull height" ...

Exactly what I was going for. Friend gets a hd in a will. Goes to pick it up, changes the oils, then complains about not finding N. I walk him thru the cable adjust, not the 1/8th out; I kept feeling the lever and told him to stop. Said, this is where you want it. Says he can find it no problem, rides it a few times a week, haven't heard from him in a few months now, or he'd be calling me.

Can't grab N says drag. Stack the steels, look for any gap. One sheet of paper over the other is seeing one crumpled sheet looking at you. Same with the frictions. Before the disassembly, pull the lever in and watch the pressure plate as you roll the bike in gear. If it wobbles, that's one variable. I mean, a 3-point pressure plate like an old HD pressure plate will wobble and N is no problem... just saying.

Palm against palm and the fingers fight. Palm over the hand and the fingers have that memory moving together. So the cut sides of the steels face the pressure plate. Frictions may show the same cut/flatter side, if not an ink print facing the pressure plate. Or did you just install them any old way?

I'm more pointing out a drag of plates if you can't find N and the farther throw of the pressure plate [pull height] has been made... 1/8th out included.

Signed,
NOLTT (no one listens to turtlempirical)

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

I'm going to assume you came to the conclusion that if the main was at the twist, the problem would still be there... which becomes complex if you think about FI.

Here is what you said found in post #6:


Even though the thread jacking went from clutch to FI, who cares, you're so close to the grasp of the diagnosing. This is more the basic FI theory of what you are looking for.

Definition of analog: of, relating to, or being a mechanism or device in which information is represented by continuously variable physical quantities
That's the sensor sending in many [analog] inputs.

Definition of digital: : of, relating to, or using calculation by numerical methods or by discrete units.
That's the processor expecting a single digit [of many analog] inputs. Here is how FI self diagnoses itself;
1. Connector not connected = Codes.
2. Pin or wire out of of connector = Codes.
3. Signal [analog] out of range~short to ground~open = Codes.

Look as an example the .80v [digit] v. 5v [analog] is the sensor. Fixed is .80v no matter the heat range. 5v is your cold test and with the 02 you think the opposite. Here comes the simplicity of FI and this analog/digital signal in the diagnosing of it. 5v says the processor knows this is the cold in the garage morning start, and this says chock it, or morning choke. The 02 heats up and the voltage drops [opposite think] as it warms up and sends in the analog [5-4-3-2-1v] and without getting more complex and that [working] voltage range of an 02, you now look at the fixed [digital] single signal the other 02 is stuck at .08v = digit over and over is that same one digit input = Codes.

The paraphrase: 'runs nice but still says stuck sensor' is back to the 1-2-3 diagnose scenario as it codes with each number showing it's a single digit being the input. So when you pulled the sensor off, you forced a code [that way is 1]. Code means 'backup' for safe running. The beauty of FI is the handcuffing man is forced to comply to the workaround. Very first rule of FI is to think 14.7 psi is 'BACKUP' to FI.

The ping back and forth of the processor waiting for input at a sensor every micro second, that 02 is sending input at idle, cruise, lift, WOT is the analog. When you say it ran better, it goes thru a method of that handcuffing. So method [backup] handles idle and low speeds with the VOES and rpm. High rpm, the method uses the TPS and rpm. That's where your backup= runs better is in 'open loop' or digital input. Closed loop are the 02's analog signals. The Alpha Method kicks in when the 02 fails/TPS fails/VOES fails.

She wink-winked at me if you understood how simple the complex is.
_________________________________________________


Exactly what I was going for. Friend gets a hd in a will. Goes to pick it up, changes the oils, then complains about not finding N. I walk him thru the cable adjust, not the 1/8th out; I kept feeling the lever and told him to stop. Said, this is where you want it. Says he can find it no problem, rides it a few times a week, haven't heard from him in a few months now, or he'd be calling me.

Can't grab N says drag. Stack the steels, look for any gap. One sheet of paper over the other is seeing one crumpled sheet looking at you. Same with the frictions. Before the disassembly, pull the lever in and watch the pressure plate as you roll the bike in gear. If it wobbles, that's one variable. I mean, a 3-point pressure plate like an old HD pressure plate will wobble and N is no problem... just saying.

Palm against palm and the fingers fight. Palm over the hand and the fingers have that memory moving together. So the cut sides of the steels face the pressure plate. Frictions may show the same cut/flatter side, if not an ink print facing the pressure plate. Or did you just install them any old way?

I'm more pointing out a drag of plates if you can't find N and the farther throw of the pressure plate [pull height] has been made... 1/8th out included.

Signed,
NOLTT (no one listens to turtlempirical)

As for the clutch

If the pack needs an ideal travel of .80 and the ramp used can only do .7 or .75 then setting it to no slack will not change that.
I have it on good authority from Clutch manufacturer and another vendor familiar with this clutch in a BDM that the easy pull ramp DOES NOT allow the full travel the clutch design needs making it finicky going into neutral. The plate and steels are fine, they were installed correctly, this is not my first rodeo.

As to the O2 sensor issue. Yes I am fully cognizant that I have taken the system out of closed-loop operation. My point of the comment was more to the fact that once the system (VFI) has learned you setup, you can easily get away with this, in fact there are EFI designed to use O2 to train the system then remove or disconnect them.

As to the o2 sensor issue, yes it can be labelled as a bad sensor. It measured as a short today when I tested it before pulling it off the bike. Once off I can not replicate that as the wires twisted quite a bit getting it removed.

Since running open loop is not problematic for the bike, I'll likely just put a plug in that hole till later. Bike is getting 49.49MPG running this way.

 

[Sven]

Noted about easy pull, and rodeo. With that new info, I'd zero out the 1/8th to just off the contact point, and still have zero gap at the perch to lever. Don't know if you are that daring closing the loopholes chasing N, but that's where I'd be going.

My point of the comment was more to the fact that once the system (VFI) has learned you setup, you can easily get away with this, in fact there are EFI designed to use O2 to train the system then remove or disconnect them.

Does the shop manual explain this 'learn' abstract on the pages of the manual, or are you guessing? Where can I read about this learn/disconnect, because search wise, I can't find this, nor does it make sense using the 3-code settings for EFI/DFI, basic inputs of a sensor used.

The basics of handcuffing of FI does not follow if the 02 is pulled. 02 is in open loop at WOT. That says demand is full power and the 02 is not about to correct back to ideal 14.7 AFR at WOT. Pull wise, I learn at the mile high city and then pull the 02 after the learn. Now I move and start the bike at sea level and the learn is where now? I learn at sea level, pull the 02, move back to Denver, and without the 02 saved, what is the point? See how one map is in sensor mode, the disconnect is in Alpha mode? Show me the disconnect without a code set.

Snow me, snow you.

 

[Sven]

See why I cover my ass in the long speak? No offense, Mike, but I'm calling you out on a simple disconnect of FI, right after I explained the handcuffing of analog v. digital v. ohm's connections v. 60mhz, v. 760mmHg or she no workey as how the abstract reads in my digital fuel injection shop manual for my bike. Only change to the next manual is the nomenclature like one brand says backup and another manual says fail-safe for the exact same handcuffing codes.

 

[Jersey Big Mike]

See why I cover my ass in the long speak? No offense, Mike, but I'm calling you out on a simple disconnect of FI, right after I explained the handcuffing of analog v. digital v. ohm's connections v. 60mhz, v. 760mmHg or she no workey as how the abstract reads in my digital fuel injection shop manual for my bike. Only change to the next manual is the nomenclature like one brand says backup and another manual says fail-safe for the exact same handcuffing codes.

By disconnecting the O2 sensor I have changed the system from closed-loop to open-loop.
The result of this is that fine adjustments will no longer be made and the map stored in the system will be used without any adjustments.
Since this is a locked VFI and narrow band O2 sensor setup for EPA compliance in the US, the range of adjustments is not very great. Since the VFI stores those adjustments after they are learned and merged and since the rest of the system (pipes, cam etc) have not changed, the bike will operate quite nicely.

 

[Brent Herridge]

Mike - really hope you're back on the road ASAP with no new problems. But as far as winning an argument with Sven.........man...........now you REALLY need help.

Take care brother.......