EFI: Thelixiripoff Explained 101.1

DRBarnhart

Insert title here...
Den, I take my references from a 1978 H-D (VOES theory) FSM. The very first sensor for the concepts to work in a real basic form. Then the complex manual to the many changes from electronic to digital EFI. That manual is a 2006 Kawi FSM. Another manual is the Aprilia. Other references are on line.

So, I applied the abstract... [blah, blah, blah]...
Thanks for the clarification Sven! :up:
No matter how you look at it; You'll lose the battle. I'll win the war.
It's disappointing that you would look at the exchange of knowledge and ideas as a "war". :(

No matter, thanks again! :hi:

Dennis
 

chacha

Chaff Your EHC!!
Calendar Participant
Dudes -- you're arguing with the insane. Ignore it and it will go someplace else like every other nut job on the street. Talk to it and it will just hang around....
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
I'm getting better at the between the lines reading. We're getting somewhere.

See, one person is going to leave you all behind. You have to read between the lines or she will not work in theory.

Dennis, I've seen enough diagnosing on the net. I'm simply suggesting to follow the shop manual procedures. FI is one wild dog. Traction control and all. No more throttle cables. No more choke cables. No more idle cables.

The book abstract reads as follows:
'If the sensor fails (no signal, wiring short or open) the ECU sets this code.' I don't know? Can you decipher this as reading the 3wV's?

It says:
1. No signal = I said, connector not connected,
2. Wiring short = I said, maybe the wire inside is burned, no follow in/follow out of those two wires.
3. Or open = I said a wire was out of a connector.

Notice how I made this in the absolute, I can play it anyway I want. Notice how the book wrote it, or took the liberty to paraphrase it. I cannot get out of that loop. These are fundamental moves. 19+ basic 3V moves. No matter how the abstract reads, it looped right back to watt I said.

All I am showing you is a better visual = Between the lines of the FSM.
 
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DRBarnhart

Insert title here...
Dennis, I've seen enough diagnosing on the net. I'm simply suggesting to follow the shop manual procedures.
You've got a unique way of doing that Sven but I agree. :2thumbs:

Of course, this assumes you have the right manual! :D

Dennis
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
02 vs. 1Atmo:

If I could build an ECU from scratch, then I'd know some formula and who to choose to send the ping. The between the lines say, where are you going to get your first number to make the ECU work? Pick up a pen. Write ultimate. There is only one number. That is the math. That is how you build a carb; Electrically that is. I've witnessed the evolution happen slowly and in stages:

1. Points.
2. Electronic.
3. Digital.

The points on an old bike? How would you read that? I would read that, Open/Closed. The electronics and digital, how would you read those? Open and closed is how I read it. How do I read it, in between the lines? My abstract reads;

Open = 1
Closed = 0
Open = 1
Closed = 0
And so on.

We see simple? We see complex? We see the cam sends in the last good known signal? FSM reads in the paraphrase; 'If the cam sensor fails, the ECU continues to ignite the same cylinder sequence following the last good signal.'

Yeah, what the heck did that mean? I guess the cam sensor is no good. It threw that code. I'll bring out the wallet. Oops. Must be the ECU. Either a 1 or an 0 is missing. Beats me? Something did not ping when key was turned off. I can bring in the FSM abstract and call it a day. I am sure those two examples made perfect sense to someone?

There is one person that gets it. How about a little more?

Open Loop = This is air leak sensitive. Stalls fast. Won't idle.
Closed Loop = This has the 02 in the exhaust. This keeps running. This detects lean. This will send in matching fuel ratio to compensate and then run out of range and code.

Both can run past idle. Open won't correct itself for the idle that is. Open is more tunable. However, with closed, you can't tune it. You make a move, the ROM counters your move. The 02 will relearn, set the safer parameter.

Open loop and closed, will use the same [type] intake air pressure sensor. This is how you can walk up to any bike, notice either an 02 somewhere on the exhaust system or not. If it is not there, most likely, it has the 1Atmo sensor being that replacement part for the 02. This is one way of deciphering who is whom when buying a bike down the road?
 

2004BC

FREEDOM!!!
Hey, I buy bikes and match the FSM limp codes. This is abstract. YOu need some basics reading me. You need to follow concepts in the book. What I say and what the book say is the same animal.

The problem is, you are going to get sucked at the dealer drive, say your wife takes the car in the shop and hear their line of crap. It won't make sense one bit. But, you get the old lady to read open and closed loop here... We are not even there yet.

Wort do you want from me? Wait for them to grow on you or read the manual or man, you will now! If you do not see 14.7 or the 1 atm or 1 atmosphere, or here we go again... The 1ATMO

This makes 5 of 19. Two variables to the 1 atm... What are they? No trick questions. Here is a hint. I stand outside for a day, I feel what? Hot and cold, right?

How am I to tune the bike? I am back to the 1atmo. I am in the hot or cold loop. The sea level, mountain high altitude. Make that 6 of 19. Is that basic science or not? I'm not going to spell out every word. This is exacting, concise speak. You just need a decoderingay ding-ding, that's all. :hi: Yoda here!

If you want to decipher a shop manual, dredge thru the vernacular of the elixir concept, you'll never find it. If you have a check engine light... This is the concept right here. Same animal as a car. Same concepts. Figure it out or wear that wrist and ankle bracelet I keep mentioning. This time it is being locked around your old lady at the stealership with a CEL on.

Hey, it's Your boat anchor or bike! The bike only works one way. Grasp what you can. :roll:
Wow. You're right. I get it now. You're a freaking idiot. Thanks. :hi:
 

V

Guru
Well he's talkin about Fuel Injection. Which is awhole diff ball of wax compared to a carb. Open loop, closed loop, Either I don't know. But As with all things FI will be the future for top power, low emssions and fuel economy. Just might have to get the neigborhood 12 year old to tune it with a lap top computer and a World of War Craft CD. :loony:
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
Maybe this is the revenge of "Vince".
I'm more interested in the bike. All I am doing is dropping the bowl of a carb. Only, I'm using FI speak and what you are looking at when you do drop a bowl (wire).

You dropping wire is the same as removing the bowl, turn the petcock on and off you go. Where? No offense, but I can take the truth and distort it. If I am bored and just typing away, I have one guy, that says, 'one on one,' I see nothing but jacking hacking.

I like it. Gives this boring subject some lame jokes that walk the truth. I'm just winding up the joke. I have to formulate my surroundings. It's coming. I don't know how well it is going to work?

1. Power.
2. Hot.
3. Ground.

1. Volts.
2. Watts.
3. Amps.

1. In wire.
2. Jobber.
3. Out wire.

The fundamentals step to the 4th dimension. The analysis of who is the most suspect between the 3 variables. Who cares the random start. Use it as a puzzle, put them all together.

Power = This means the FI system has to distribute a range of 0 to 5 volts.

Amps = This example is the power source. These are the power lines coming in the house. This is a set balance. Like a toaster, the parts that keep it from burning out is all built with parts an EE (electrical engineer) can put together.

Watts = This says another balance. A 3w bulb has its limits or it blows. Balance says; install a 6v bulb into a 12v taillight and turn the key on, hello? Balance says; reverse the engineering, the 12v bulb will drain that battery in half the time. Kind of like, reverse engineering, out of balance engineering my toaster. The house is on firengines, I hear them coming!

Jobber = The turn signal bulbs, the brake light bulb, need so much wattage to be the jobber. The jobber is the cam sensor or the hall effect parts. Those are like the stator. They are coiled wires that swing past a magnet, or can be the magnet. Basic stuff to know. Jobbers are the sensors. The light bulbs, anything that does a job like glow in the dark and make things spark. The coil is a jobber call it. A Jobber; has a preset resistance.

In wire = Make it simple so the hall effect jobbers have 2 wires. No matter how you look at it, the jobber is one wire in----jobber-- -- one wire out.

Hot = One wire has to have an electrical source to feed the jobber or the heat sink that gets hot won't work on that end. The wire is not connect to that side. The 12v is not in play, maybe is the electrical source? The jobber has broken the chain link out to the other wire. That in wire to the cam sensor is just coiled around itself with an epoxy layer between wire winds. It is a chain that never should break or it is the jobber that failed inside. Because of heat or production quality, say a coil wire's layer is thin enough between the next wire to touch it. That melted the material, touched the wire onto itself = New resistance/open circuit/short to ground [before out wire].

Out wire = Here are your other threads about which unit is better or was it just a ground problem kind of thread? The units are fine. They send them back to you. Their reputation is on the line. You having to reinstall it, makes a better ground connection. That is the ground wire. That ground wire makes, :hi: How do you wave threads when you forget to read the instructions, mess with the ground wire, and you have a special wave for grounDog day on the side of the road. Corny buttrue. You had to mess with the boat anchor.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
Fuel-Ign. Feed vs. Backup/Limp/Fail-Safe

A 3-wire sensor usually has a:

Backup.
Limp.
Fail-Safe.

They all mean the same. This is generic speak for the 1Atmo number. Watt happens if a sensor fails?

IAP P
Crank P
TPS P

FI is basically an injection of volume. There are various sensors, there are ultimate sensors. A water and air temp are various sensors. These 3 are more THE Ultimate Sensors.

P is what position am I in? If I am key on, I am at this pressure at the 1Atmo sensor. I know 14.7 is going to be 'positioned' to the ultimate number. I have no clue how cold or hot I am? They are no longer in the loop. I'm in limp mode so I have to run more rich. I have no clue I read the ultimate number, I am not about to guess.

I feel safe if I retard you up and light you up quick with some fat-rich-is safer an cooler than leaner. So, map your ass is grass you see the check engine light kind of ultimate mess you are now in.

'Our backup takes measures to protect the engine [but we won't say how-you should know that going in].' Our paraphrase says, you did have all the HP to have, but no, you took your VOES and not knowingly, popped a code and sent that tie-in jobber out of the loop. You have this sporty grunt at the bottom, but it's like taking a shit like Elvis. He with his peanut butter and banana sandwiches. Protein lockup, you are set to FAIL. But be safe th(.)ugh. Your anal retentive is on autopilot.

That is half ass is the low to mid part of the limp/fail/safe/mode. We are not even close yet. Dares more.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
TPS vs. Cs

The position of the throttle; dictates the crank's speed.
The crank's speed; dictates the the fuel volume.

You are safe to ride to a repair station. Even if the 1Atmo goes out, there still is the math plotted; if the crank sensor was the only one left standing.

If you think about it:

X = 14.7? The unknown? No, this here is the calc number for limp/fail-safe/base timing.
Y = Crank counts. The ECU knows how fast by how many crank sessions at what speed, right?
Z = Squirt the load, you really should have that looked at.

The abstract says:

P for Protein = Slow out the back [tire].
P for Pulling your chain = :job:
P for Pulling my zipper down = 18 AFR is Full Pee for POWER.
P is for AFR needle position = 16.5:1 is Safe-Mode/Limp'd.
 

BadBrad

2005 Pitbull
Sven,
I'm sure you have been anticipating my post. Let's look at the big picture first. Where are you and what are you doing? You're on Big Dog Bikers forum where Big Dog owners look to find information to help them troubleshoot/fix anything with their Big Dog bikes. As far as what you're doing? I think you're trying to give a lesson on fuel injection bikes, of which the majority on this site don't have. In the end, have you helped anyone fix a problem with their bike? Has anyone jumped in to comment on how much they appreciate all the assistance and information you're giving? I don't have FI but I do speak English and all you do is rant in some kind of wierd jibberish and assume you're actually teaching us something. Perhaps a couple may understand but if you don't speak in terms that the majority can understand, what's your point? I'm sure you'll have some kind of negative reply towards my post in regards to being ignorant and not capable of learning, so come on with it. I'll be disapointed if you don't. If you're really as smart as you think you are, then teach a lesson the majority can understand. A buddy of mine that is an electrical engineer specializing in race engines (both carb and FI) read some of your earlier posts and says you are full of shit and don't have a clue what you're talking about. Of course I defended you and told him he just doesn't understand you. To know you is to understand you and I damn sure don't know you. If you ever get east of the Mighty Mississippi, stop by and have a beer. After a case or 2, I might actually think I understand what you're trying to say. Until then, you may want to consider traveling a couple hundred miles west. That should put you somewhere around the Channel Islands National Park and an uninhabited island may be where you're best understood.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
These are your building blocks in no certain order. They will eventually follow a pattern. You'll connect the dots. It's too easy.

Low - Mid = Idle on up to one crank degree.
Mid - High = The 1-0-1 transition you cannot feel.
Time - 1/2 split = 60mhz.

To understand the ultimate, it is a time thing. An old analog TV has a split line. I have no clue about this phenom. All I know is, I can walk the abstract watching the split screen. Any data to understand this FI business can explain the complex a bit easier.

Go read someone named, Russ Collins. He with his famous 3 engine honda asked them about a certain move in the computer. Russ is into fuel injection service now. Anyway, his website story said that honda told him to go take a flying, so Russ found out his own answers. Something I'm trying to do.

I cannot ask those type of questions that are going in my head. So fuck honda. Can I say fuck? I'll walk it like Mr. Collins did. I took a 1978 H-D shop manual, read up on the VOES. Found out there is a 2-step procedure to setting up the ignition.

And because the VOES shows no check engine light or code, this is still basic crude FI:

Base Timing: I have an ignition plate in hand. How do I initially time-in this thing? I will basically find the middle of the swing. Even a set of points; I will swing every range in the middle or in the center of its travel. That gets me in the ballpark to starting it up. That is step one, or pre-base. However, post-base is to set the crank's timing with a timing light.

When the vacuum hose is not attached to the engine, I'm going to take a guess. The unit has to use a number the VOES no longer gives. My guess it the calc now runs off the penultimate number. Write it down forever in your head.

VOES: This is the smooth, linear rush up to advance. You WOT this without the hose attached to the VOES, you are in the, and I will guess at this, the limp mode. They call it base timing. The abstract reads, your limp is now in an 1-0 kind of digital move.

Analog = Many moves. Use a wall light rheostat to dime or bright the light.
Digital = This is either on or off. Like a wall socket switch. She is either...

On = Full advance.
Off = Retards.

Analog = 1-2-3-4-5-6-5-4-3-2-1
Digital = 1-0-1-0-1 - - - - ___ Fill in the blanks.

This limp example of the VOES: Is where you feel more peppy power. But you are at the mercy of the ignition curve for full power. Lots of detonation without the vacuum calling the shots. If this confusing... Wait.
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
In the end, have you helped anyone fix a problem with their bike?
Nope. You won't listen. And I sure did not listen to the info given. The suggests were more, add more fuel to the fire. I yelled fire and the theater was on fire. No one listened and burned out some bandwidth with a few pages of oh by the way. If you look at it that way, then yeah, in a way, yes. It takes that long to unravel the OP's no-info a come'inn. So, don't hold your breath.


Has anyone jumped in to comment on how much they appreciate all the assistance and information you're giving?
I don't know how many assists in the net that are not appreciated? They gave the OP the proper english. So, I really do not look for that stuff at all. Why, do you? There are a few times, or maybe many times I follow a question, find a website and the OP is nowhere to be found? Did the suggestion work> Who cares! Ain't my abyss, guy. And when I search something, it was never appreciated by the guy asking about his problem. His answer sure was there. So, no, that is human nature to kick you when you're down and all that mob rule. No respect. I see it done to others. I'm no different not being appreciated and this is just me searching old, old site dates, seeing how people treat each other. Nothing has changed that I can see.

I don't have FI but I do speak English and all you do is rant in some kind of wierd jibberish and assume you're actually teaching us something.
I'm teaching you to walk the OP's every word. I just run you around so your posts have to be spelled out. Spelled like, where are you going with that variable if this fuse runs the computer. I said, you read the code or blinking LED's, or whatever. What did the compute just flash or blink? Is it the fuse now or not?

See how the pages begin> It was too retarded, no it was the fuse. No, it's the tire cords. How did you determine 2 amigos? WATT and WOT are the odds it is one or the other, not both.

2BAD said, it is too bad it was one thing all this time. It narrows down to the ignition running retarded. But you won't pay attention. You don't see it. How, BB, did I walk up to your bike from here, nail that variable? I sat on my ass waiting for the correct variable.

She is one gayEGO. Me go look for it. You had your chance so sit down.

GAS'd = Go and sit down. Year playing wit day big boys. If you know who the AMA and FIM are, I can sneak shit under their noses. Cheat and have a slight edge. YOu believe it? I'm itching to tell your buddy, but you might as well kill me. I dies with me.

Perhaps a couple may understand but if you don't speak in terms that the majority can understand, what's your point?
This is for a more advanced crowd. A beginner has to know their basic 3V's or they will be lost. There are too many fundamentals, I used 19 as a number.

I'm sure you'll have some kind of negative reply towards my post in regards to being ignorant and not capable of learning, so come on with it. I'll be disappointed if you don't. If you're really as smart as you think you are, then teach a lesson the majority can understand.
I can't. This is so the guy(s) that do help, can grasp the WATT?WOT I am saying. They more can communicate with you then. All they are doing is getting a refresher course on the words they know.

I've got news for you... My old lady to this day, and she has been with me for a very long time... Has yet to understand my sentences and the words I come up with to describe things. I can't ride a bike well enough to keep them upright. I have drain bamage. That makes me too stew PIT for seat scare. And to be honest, I wouldn't trade a bull busting movie you'll be getting. LOL

If whack is whack... :cheers:

A buddy of mine that is an electrical engineer specializing in race engines (both carb and FI) read some of your earlier posts and says you are full of shit and don't have a clue what you're talking about.
I know you have balls to man up. So, have your buddy prove every step of BS he brings in :whoop: His carb against my carb. His FI tune against mine. Word for word... Watch it go down...

When I get called out, it is all about race face. I like a little competition then and again. What separates us from them... Do they have the balls to commit? I think when you race, it is a commitment? Nothing gets in the way? No booze, drugs, dames... Only one game in town. BRING IT.

Quit teasing me. :roll:


Of course I defended you and told him he just doesn't understand you. To know you is to understand you and I damn sure don't know you.
Thank you. Nor does the old lady. Welcome to the club.

If you ever get east of the Mighty Mississippi, stop by and have a beer. After a case or 2, I might actually think I understand what you're trying to say. Until then, you may want to consider traveling a couple hundred miles west. That should put you somewhere around the Channel Islands National Park and an uninhabited island may be where you're best understood.
I wonder the same thing? I used to say... 'Since 1999, where are you tech savvy guys?" YOu got ripped off! I see it and you can't? Now I learned my curves the hard way. R&D till the blood rushed back to my rear end. Ask your buddy if he knows what, 'Seat Gap' is? I now put the gap down to 1983.

I missed that move all this time and now when I have it, no won wants to ear about it. So, what that means is, a goodeedoes punisHA! So, before it gets there, you sort of massage it like a mirror. I turn it around on you firstee-hee. :D
 

Oscar Maldonado

Guru
Calendar Participant
Ask your buddy if he knows what, 'Seat Gap' is? I now put the gap down to 1983. :D
Let's try this - - - Although I might not be to bright....

Seat gap-
It's a method of detecting a gap between a valve seat insert and a port in a cylinder head may include heating the valve seat insert and the cylinder head and generating a thermal image of the valve seat insert and the cylinder head at an interface between the valve seat insert and corresponding port in the cylinder head housing the valve seat insert. The thermal image may be evaluated to determine the magnitude of a gap between the valve seat insert and the cylinder head based on a temperature at the interface between the valve seat insert and the cylinder head.

An engine valve seat gap evaluation system comprising:a thermal camera assembly including an infrared sensor;a fixture having a first end coupled to the thermal camera assembly; anda mirror coupled to a second end of the fixture opposite the first end and adapted to be located within an engine port to direct infrared radiation from a gap between a cylinder head and a valve seat insert to the infrared sensor
correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Five Five

Well-Known Member
Sven ... no dis-respect but you need to put down the crack pipe and get some sleep .... It's cool man, back up from your computer and go lay your head down for a few days .... when you wake up jump In the shower and clean yourself up... get yourself something to eat and then come back to this post and read what you wrote ...

Thanks Man :up:
"five"
 

stlmikie

I wish I had more money.
I honestly like the ramblings. I cannot lie. All I can say. If you can't get along stay away from each other. I respect the fact that Sven is taking time out of his busy day to try and teach me something. Part of this may be my fault. I asked him to do the lesson. Brad, I like what I have read from you. You did things with your bike that I would have been scared to do at the time. You earned my respect along time ago. I mean no disrespect to anyone but geez. If no one is interested in what the man has to say, move on. All the back and forth shit won't end until someone just drops it. There is no winner. There is no competition.
 

Five Five

Well-Known Member
I honestly like the ramblings. I cannot lie. All I can say. If you can't get along stay away from each other. I respect the fact that Sven is taking time out of his busy day to try and teach me something. Part of this may be my fault. I asked him to do the lesson. Brad, I like what I have read from you. You did things with your bike that I would have been scared to do at the time. You earned my respect along time ago. I mean no disrespect to anyone but geez. If no one is interested in what the man has to say, move on. All the back and forth shit won't end until someone just drops it. There is no winner. There is no competition.
Fair enough Mike .... moving on :cheers:

"five"
 
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