leebigdogva
New Member
05 chopper, noticed engine making unusual sound close to home. Thought maybe exhaust loose but checked ok. Found leak on rear jug gasket. Any help ??
Head gasket??
- Thread starter leebigdogva
- Start date
I. Let's assume your ear says 'tick' and seems you know to chase an exhaust sound as such.
2. Let's now assume you put the tick and oil blowout between head and barrel is a blown head gasket.
3. Let's see if you called the ball correctly and how would you field fix this as opposed to show it with tools?
a. Since my bike is cold, I can clean the area with contact cleaner, place my hand at that area and feel for a pulse, see if my hand is peppered with new oil, or is this a weep and this tick is something else, or someplace else inside?
b. Since I can play meguyveer and design a piano-puff signal, I am going to roll up some news paper, shove it in the top fin, meaning, just jam the paper in so some hangs down past the head gasket.
c. Since saying the ear or hand was not enough to tell, I now cut down and up along the paper to the first top fin. My piano keys can lay as tight as a hula skirt size strands, or piano size, but in proportion so as to watch the pulse push a paper cut up past the others... See that puff out the head gasket pinpointed; where with the oil leak showing the way?
4. Let's drill it into your head that the very first thing--move you do to any N/A engine you work on, where is the compression? How easy can I find a leak in a cylinder is you are cutting away, I have the #1 tool you refuse to buy... I'm going to work on my bike and chase my tail or tool-up?
Stated another way... Use Is playing wit day big boys and that one big boy tool says it all.
Signed,
Dixie Normous
2. Let's now assume you put the tick and oil blowout between head and barrel is a blown head gasket.
3. Let's see if you called the ball correctly and how would you field fix this as opposed to show it with tools?
a. Since my bike is cold, I can clean the area with contact cleaner, place my hand at that area and feel for a pulse, see if my hand is peppered with new oil, or is this a weep and this tick is something else, or someplace else inside?
b. Since I can play meguyveer and design a piano-puff signal, I am going to roll up some news paper, shove it in the top fin, meaning, just jam the paper in so some hangs down past the head gasket.
c. Since saying the ear or hand was not enough to tell, I now cut down and up along the paper to the first top fin. My piano keys can lay as tight as a hula skirt size strands, or piano size, but in proportion so as to watch the pulse push a paper cut up past the others... See that puff out the head gasket pinpointed; where with the oil leak showing the way?
4. Let's drill it into your head that the very first thing--move you do to any N/A engine you work on, where is the compression? How easy can I find a leak in a cylinder is you are cutting away, I have the #1 tool you refuse to buy... I'm going to work on my bike and chase my tail or tool-up?
Stated another way... Use Is playing wit day big boys and that one big boy tool says it all.
Signed,
Dixie Normous
SKOGDOG
One of the old ones.
X2--
With a manual, basic tools and a good torque wrench, it's easier than it first seems. I only change the one that failed, but a lot of guys want to change them both...most recommend changing the base gasket while you have it apart, which means you have to pull the jugs, so you have to also have a piston ring compressor too. Can't overemphasize following the manual and correctly torquing and using Loctite as prescribed.
Another thread had someone who recommended riding a day or two and re-torquing the heads- following reassembly---not a bad idea, although I dont think too many actually do it.
cdogg556
Guru
Yea, that was mentioned by Sven about proper torquing of the head/cylinder bolts, he then said that was only done if you are using the cometic metal head gaskets, if you are using the S&S replacement gaskets there is no need to re-torque the heads, I also confirmed that with an S&S tech and John Sachs whom have built many engines with no problems, also you are correct about the torque wrench, GET A GOOD ONE! It will be worth the money!
SKOGDOG
One of the old ones.
This article is from Cars Direct..a quick way to dial in that old torque wrench.....don't mean to hijack leebigdog's thread, but this seemed relevant.
How to Calibrate a Torque Wrench
February 27, 2012
A torque wrench is only as good as its accuracy. Learn the 5-step procedure for proper torque wrench calibration.
Any mechanic with a few years in the field will tell you how important it is to have a good working torque wrench in the tool box. They will also tell you how important it is to have the torque wrench calibrated by a shop with the proper equipment, and technical expertise. While there is no substitute for proper calibration, there is a way to determine the amount of error in the torque wrench, and make adjustments for the error.
Tools and Materials
Measure and Mark
On the back of the torque wrench, make a mark to correspond to the center of the square drive. Measure an even distance down the handle near where your hand would normally be during use, and make another mark. Record the measurement. For the purpose of demonstration, the measurement will be 24 inches.
Set the Wrench in the Vice
Clamp the head (square drive) in the bench vice, making sure that no other parts of the wrench contact the vice. Move the handle to a horizontal position. Set the torque value to the appropriate setting, for this demonstration ours will be 24 inches x 20 pounds, this equals 480 inch pounds, or 40 foot pounds.
Find the Point of Transition
Hang the weight along the line made in step 1. If you hear a click, lift the weight and move it in towards the square drive a little at a time until it stops clicking. Mark this point. If no click occurs, move the weight away from the square drive until it is heard, and mark here. When searching for the point of transition, move the weight in and out to insure that the exact point is found, making several attempts to check. Always lift the weight off the handle to move it, to insure accuracy.
Measure the Transition Point
Measure the distance from the square drive to the point of the click transition. This measurement is the second number of the ratio you will need. For demonstration it will be 26 inches. If the torque applied at 24 inches was 480 inch pounds, or 40 foot pounds, then the torque actually applied in the demonstration would be 26 inches x 20 pounds, or 520 inch pounds (50 foot pounds, 520 divided by 12).
Correct for the Difference
To make the proper correction, divide the ratio numbers. 24 divided by 26 equals .923. Multiply the amount of torque desired by this number. So, if you want 50 foot pounds applied, you would set the wrench at 46.15 foot pounds.
The actual mathematical equation looks like this: Ta=Ts x(D1/D2.) Ta is torque applied, Ts is torque setting, D1 is first distance, D2 second distance.
How to Calibrate a Torque Wrench
February 27, 2012
A torque wrench is only as good as its accuracy. Learn the 5-step procedure for proper torque wrench calibration.
Any mechanic with a few years in the field will tell you how important it is to have a good working torque wrench in the tool box. They will also tell you how important it is to have the torque wrench calibrated by a shop with the proper equipment, and technical expertise. While there is no substitute for proper calibration, there is a way to determine the amount of error in the torque wrench, and make adjustments for the error.
Tools and Materials
- A torque wrench
- A bench vise
- A 20 pound weight
- Bailing wire or twine
- A tape measure
- A permanent marker
Measure and Mark
On the back of the torque wrench, make a mark to correspond to the center of the square drive. Measure an even distance down the handle near where your hand would normally be during use, and make another mark. Record the measurement. For the purpose of demonstration, the measurement will be 24 inches.
Set the Wrench in the Vice
Clamp the head (square drive) in the bench vice, making sure that no other parts of the wrench contact the vice. Move the handle to a horizontal position. Set the torque value to the appropriate setting, for this demonstration ours will be 24 inches x 20 pounds, this equals 480 inch pounds, or 40 foot pounds.
Find the Point of Transition
Hang the weight along the line made in step 1. If you hear a click, lift the weight and move it in towards the square drive a little at a time until it stops clicking. Mark this point. If no click occurs, move the weight away from the square drive until it is heard, and mark here. When searching for the point of transition, move the weight in and out to insure that the exact point is found, making several attempts to check. Always lift the weight off the handle to move it, to insure accuracy.
Measure the Transition Point
Measure the distance from the square drive to the point of the click transition. This measurement is the second number of the ratio you will need. For demonstration it will be 26 inches. If the torque applied at 24 inches was 480 inch pounds, or 40 foot pounds, then the torque actually applied in the demonstration would be 26 inches x 20 pounds, or 520 inch pounds (50 foot pounds, 520 divided by 12).
Correct for the Difference
To make the proper correction, divide the ratio numbers. 24 divided by 26 equals .923. Multiply the amount of torque desired by this number. So, if you want 50 foot pounds applied, you would set the wrench at 46.15 foot pounds.
The actual mathematical equation looks like this: Ta=Ts x(D1/D2.) Ta is torque applied, Ts is torque setting, D1 is first distance, D2 second distance.
john sachs
Well-Known Member
You NEVER / DON'T re torque heads on a Harley/Utima, S&S, etc. style engine, no matter what type of head gaskets you use.....
Can't be emphasized enough.
John
Can't be emphasized enough.
John
SKOGDOG
One of the old ones.
OK! I promise. Never have and never will. When a guy with your chops tells me emphatically, I listen....
Hoping you have a minute to explain.....
john sachs
Well-Known Member
It's all about thermal dynamics.
Talk to a V-Twin head gasket manufacturer, or check the web for info.(Lengthy explanation).
Heat cycle the motor several times after assembly, get it tuned if any upgrades, and ride it. NO re-torque.
Oh, by the way NEVER use Loctite on the cylinder head fasteners to studs. A drop of oil on the threads, and under the fastener heads is all that's needed before torqueing.
John
Talk to a V-Twin head gasket manufacturer, or check the web for info.(Lengthy explanation).
Heat cycle the motor several times after assembly, get it tuned if any upgrades, and ride it. NO re-torque.
Oh, by the way NEVER use Loctite on the cylinder head fasteners to studs. A drop of oil on the threads, and under the fastener heads is all that's needed before torqueing.
John
cdogg556
Guru
So after you heat cycle the engine several times, is it ok to go WOT? How high of rpm's are safe with a 585 cam? I think I read somewhere that these bikes have a built in rev limiter and it kicks in around 6,000 rpm.
cdogg556
Guru
Sven? John? Anybody??????
francoblay1
The Spaniard
You hope 6241 would be the rev limiter kicking in. That's a pretty high rpm level, but if it peaks at 6240, I would not want to miss a gear at that rpm. Look at the handcuffing of the processor. 0-7= 8. To me, it is beauty in action. Notice the flipflop getting there. That's why this bike is so computer savvy or the engineer(s) that made this box and exploited the wink-wink (8) in computer speak. Think binary so you sort of get the processing part of the box you are messing with. Same goes with that speedo cutting out/cutting in. Gotta know ROM-RAM to decipher if hits hardware or software hitting the brain vs. handcuffing. So this rev limiter is all about flipflop.
So if the abstract says 0-7 = 8 @ 6240, then 6241 is the rev limiter??? I played out my 8 handcuffs, anything past 6240 goes to ground??? That's how I would design the flipflop. That's how I see and I'm sure I'm wrong in step, but it sure steps like I could kill it at 6241 if flip flops to ground... and data how it words is ground RAM... where are we in rpm? Fucking complicated I know... simple at the same time is the abstract.
_______________________________________________________________
Brand new bikes/cars/trucks/etc... is there a reference in the owner's manual as to start and stop for a heat cycle? No.
Have I assembled engines with new gaskets and oh look service manager, the owner did not cycle his new gaskets and here is a comeback? Never happened I had to replace gaskets, the owners did not follow procedure? Nope... no comebacks... gaskets wise.
Been racing for say 16 years worth of rebuilds and once it starts it was 6 hours before it was turned off and those rpms were super high no heat cycles. Did I ever have a DNF from a gasket I never heat cycle? Nope.
Owning Brand new bikes, rebuilt bikes, not once did I need to heat cycle what might be a fallacy, if the field comes up with dry heads and I'm talking about 1000's of bikes I've changed head gaskets on in my career... working [dealer level] on US/J/G/Brit bikes/GM cars and that little stint [heavy line = eng rebuilds/trans/rear end/4x] being a gearhead, and having that for a backup/back-pocket career.
Big time failure was to reline the silicone on vette engines. So off goes the intake manifold, scrape the water jackets clean for new gaskets, run the silicone down the fore and aft manifold ends or the engine block and close that gap from the rise of the gaskets... If that's in a heat cycle and no mention of a bulletin>>> of having the field [new car owners] being clueless of heat cycling their new car...??? I made no mention and knew about that theory way back when... another story.
Home he here dose no cycle if I send you a dose of (1)new/used gaskets out in the field, (2)the owner's manual, (3)no [bike/car] factory bulletin of their gaskets needing a heat cycle, (4)or as we speak are millions of new cars sold; are they off to the side of the road smoking steam or oil is.... my kingdom for a "FALLACY?"
Signed,
Thermally speaking... I love an argument with all that new shit out there and still no mention about break-in for gaskets in said owner's man you will pay pushing theory for theory, let alone a factory bulletin-break-in.
So if the abstract says 0-7 = 8 @ 6240, then 6241 is the rev limiter??? I played out my 8 handcuffs, anything past 6240 goes to ground??? That's how I would design the flipflop. That's how I see and I'm sure I'm wrong in step, but it sure steps like I could kill it at 6241 if flip flops to ground... and data how it words is ground RAM... where are we in rpm? Fucking complicated I know... simple at the same time is the abstract.
_______________________________________________________________
Brand new bikes/cars/trucks/etc... is there a reference in the owner's manual as to start and stop for a heat cycle? No.
Have I assembled engines with new gaskets and oh look service manager, the owner did not cycle his new gaskets and here is a comeback? Never happened I had to replace gaskets, the owners did not follow procedure? Nope... no comebacks... gaskets wise.
Been racing for say 16 years worth of rebuilds and once it starts it was 6 hours before it was turned off and those rpms were super high no heat cycles. Did I ever have a DNF from a gasket I never heat cycle? Nope.
Owning Brand new bikes, rebuilt bikes, not once did I need to heat cycle what might be a fallacy, if the field comes up with dry heads and I'm talking about 1000's of bikes I've changed head gaskets on in my career... working [dealer level] on US/J/G/Brit bikes/GM cars and that little stint [heavy line = eng rebuilds/trans/rear end/4x] being a gearhead, and having that for a backup/back-pocket career.
Big time failure was to reline the silicone on vette engines. So off goes the intake manifold, scrape the water jackets clean for new gaskets, run the silicone down the fore and aft manifold ends or the engine block and close that gap from the rise of the gaskets... If that's in a heat cycle and no mention of a bulletin>>> of having the field [new car owners] being clueless of heat cycling their new car...??? I made no mention and knew about that theory way back when... another story.
Home he here dose no cycle if I send you a dose of (1)new/used gaskets out in the field, (2)the owner's manual, (3)no [bike/car] factory bulletin of their gaskets needing a heat cycle, (4)or as we speak are millions of new cars sold; are they off to the side of the road smoking steam or oil is.... my kingdom for a "FALLACY?"
Signed,
Thermally speaking... I love an argument with all that new shit out there and still no mention about break-in for gaskets in said owner's man you will pay pushing theory for theory, let alone a factory bulletin-break-in.
francoblay1
The Spaniard
Yes Sir.
cdogg556
Guru
So, basically you are saying that you've never heat cycled your engines when you installed head gaskets and have had no problems at all, I am not that ballsy so I think after a few tanks of gas it should be fine! Thanks Sven!
francoblay1
The Spaniard
Your welcome and correct. I agree with John about one torque to the heads and you are done. As far as heat cycle, totally your call. I'm just an observer seeing new cars/bikes make no mention of an initial heat cycle to the gaskets.